[Football] "Graham Potter’s side remain a gloriously flawed machine": The Observer 12 July

[Goldstone1976]

Yeah two schools of thought definitely.
The play without fear mantra that has followed Potter around wherever he goes, shows that he won't be inflicting any morale-sapping comments to anyone who try and fail.

I suspect the long term view is that developing a squad, who have a good siege-mentality "us against the world" creates a squad who are only valuable to us.
A squad who are developed to reach their own individual potential creates players who will be valued by other clubs more highly and ensure that the club achieves the necessary return on investment to be able to compete at this level.

Another thought-provoking post.

Yep, I can well see that that assessment may be correct - it would certainly chime in nicely with other aspects of TBs approach; it's all about the long-term.

It follows logically that we will continue to see younger and younger Albion squads (though there is of course a limit!) as the younger a player is, the more scope there is to increase their potential, thus realising a better ROI. Over time, the quality of the younger players bought increases (as you have more cash available to buy them), until you reach the nirvana of finishing in, err, the top ten on a consistent basis.

Yep, I can buy that as a hypothesis.

 

[FatSuperman]

You could be right but I can't think of one, but I am a bit happy clappy.

<snip>

Oh look, YET ANOTHER well-reasoned post from you, with some facts and evidence-based opinion thrown in. I must say I'm getting a bit tired of reading stuff that makes sense, and this thread has a good number of sensible posts on it. I think I need to speak to Bozza about getting myself on the moderator bus so I can start dishing out infractions for sensible posts like this. Get NSC back to it's binfest best. You're on the top of my hit list Mr UHH.

I'm off to the shop to grab some refreshments for tonight. I'm equal points excited and scared! Really hope we can add a W to the Southampton line! x

 

[Stato]

“You do have to wonder. Even now looking at the top six of the Championship, all of the clubs, bar Brentford look a good bet to finish above Brighton next season, regardless of who goes up.”

Obviously not familiar with Aston Villa or Norwich

It's surprising how often this fallacy gets trotted out. It seems that every year, in some people's eyes, the teams at the top of the Championship are far better than the teams at bottom of the Premier League. Yet who are these teams at the top of the Championship? Half of the top eight are teams that have been relegated from the Premier League over the three seasons that we've been in it.

Norwich will be rejoining the Championship next season and I have already heard comments that, if they don't lose their squad, they'll be favourites to go up. I've also heard the same said of relegation threatened Bournemouth and Villa. If West Ham go down, everyone will be talking about playing for second place and if we were to suffer a Devon Loch in the next couple of weeks, we would also be talked about as one of the strong promotion contenders.

Perhaps then there is a reason why those at the top of the Championship look better than those at the bottom of the EPL. My guess would be that one factor could be that instead of playing Luton & Hull, we've just played Liverpool and Man Bleedin' City. Shockingly there seems to be a bit of a difference between playing in a very competitive league where anyone can beat anyone and competing against teams being underwritten by some of the world's wealthiest people and oil rich nations.

Those who feel the need to aim this accusation at us, may want to take a look at Jake Humphrey's Twitter account and wonder whether he now thinks that some credit may be due to a smallish promoted team with no history of Murdoch era top league involvement that looks like bucking the trend and staying up for their third consecutive season. If they are going down and can't bounce back quickly, future Bournemouth fans will more than likely be looking back at the last few years as a miracle that happened to their club. Statistically there is a good chance that we may end up the same. It's bloody hard to get promotion from the Championship, but it turns out that the reward for doing it is being faced with something much, much harder and none of the glory.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Another thought-provoking post.

Yep, I can well see that that assessment may be correct - it would certainly chime in nicely with other aspects of TBs approach; it's all about the long-term.

It follows logically that we will continue to see younger and younger Albion squads (though there is of course a limit!) as the younger a player is, the more scope there is to increase their potential, thus realising a better ROI. Over time, the quality of the younger players bought increases (as you have more cash available to buy them), until you reach the nirvana of finishing in, err, the top ten on a consistent basis.

Yep, I can buy that as a hypothesis.

Thanks.

Don't get me wrong. I was one of the biggest Hughton fans and wanted him to stay.
But the truth is that the value of all the outfield players brought in during the previous 2 years had stayed still or gone backwards.
I can understand why Tony, the successful businessman, would make a call to replace him with someone capable of reversing the trend.

 

[Simster]

Nevertheless I'd take 'gloriously flawed' over 'Burnley are being very Burnley', as it was last night, every single day of the week.

I wondered when someone would mention Burnley but think it is arrogant nonsense to be turning your nose up at their side when the Albion have struggled every season. I believe they are among the lowest payers and yet consistently turn out good sides. Anecdotally, their defence appears no worse than ours. They have a centre-back on the periphery of the England set up, just like us. Beyond that, their defence is competent. What they also have are two or three strong and willing players up front, and we know all about Barnes and Wood here - nobody made us bin them both off. We have no such striker and it shows. We are going to struggle up front without reinforcements, as Maupay is our only up-to-standard striker right now.

I'm all for being easy on the eye and relying on possession and pace, but not at the expense of being good at football. I think we can all see where Potter is trying to go with this side but it doesn't mean the ginger Dalek (and Chris Wilder) haven't done tremendous jobs relying on power and organisation - I wouldn't say either of them are particularly bad to watch.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I wondered when someone would mention Burnley but think it is arrogant nonsense to be turning your nose up at their side when the Albion have struggled every season. I believe they are among the lowest payers and yet consistently turn out good sides. Anecdotally, their defence appears no worse than ours. They have a centre-back on the periphery of the England set up, just like us. Beyond that, their defence is competent. What they also have are two or three strong and willing players up front, and we know all about Barnes and Wood here - nobody made us bin them both off. We have no such striker and it shows. We are going to struggle up front without reinforcements, as Maupay is our only up-to-standard striker right now.

I'm all for being easy on the eye and relying on possession and pace, but not at the expense of being good at football. I think we can all see where Potter is trying to go with this side but it doesn't mean the ginger Dalek (and Chris Wilder) haven't done tremendous jobs relying on power and organisation - I wouldn't say either of them are particularly bad to watch.

Yeah I would agree with this.

Dyche has put together a really good squad of players able to compete in the Prem on a budget.
I don't know whether this is solely because of Dyche';s management/tactical nouse, or whether he, Burnley and the recruitment team have been perfectly aligned.

He is allegedly pissed off with the chairman and wants out.
If he goes, It will be interesting to see how he fares at a different club and whether he could be more successful, with more funds at his disposal.

 

[elwheelio]

Burnley and Dyche continue to do great things, all things considered. They seem to buy well, have a clear philosophy and have given a lot of lower league players a chance to prove themselves at a higher level. Some turn their nose up at their style of play but it's not just a team of brutes. If it were they wouldn't survive year after year.

 

[Simster]

Yeah I would agree with this.

Dyche has put together a really good squad of players able to compete in the Prem on a budget.
I don't know whether this is solely because of Dyche';s management/tactical nouse, or whether he, Burnley and the recruitment team have been perfectly aligned.

He is allegedly pissed off with the chairman and wants out.
If he goes, It will be interesting to see how he fares at a different club and whether he could be more successful, with more funds at his disposal.

I suspect their recruitment team can spot a player and are good at finding the type of players Dyche wants - and I haven't even mentioned their 'keepers - barely two years ago they had Heaton and Pope at the club - feck knows why they then signed Joe Hart.

The year they got promoted they stayed up by 4 points but have done well ever since - this is likely to be their 2nd top half finish in 3 seasons. As I say, it is annoying reading rubbish about their side when in that time we have finished 15th, 17th and now 15th again (at best).

 

[elwheelio]

I suspect their recruitment team can spot a player and are good at finding the type of players Dyche wants - and I haven't even mentioned their 'keepers - barely two years ago they had Heaton and Pope at the club - feck knows why they then signed Joe Hart.

The year they got promoted they stayed up by 4 points but have done well ever since - this is likely to be their 2nd top half finish in 3 seasons. As I say, it is annoying reading rubbish about their side when in that time we have finished 15th, 17th and now 15th again (at best).

Ironic isn't it? They've achieved what we've clearly stated we are aiming for - to become a top 10 side.

 

[Stat Brother]

I wondered when someone would mention Burnley but think it is arrogant nonsense to be turning your nose up at their side when the Albion have struggled every season. I believe they are among the lowest payers and yet consistently turn out good sides. Anecdotally, their defence appears no worse than ours. They have a centre-back on the periphery of the England set up, just like us. Beyond that, their defence is competent. What they also have are two or three strong and willing players up front, and we know all about Barnes and Wood here - nobody made us bin them both off. We have no such striker and it shows. We are going to struggle up front without reinforcements, as Maupay is our only up-to-standard striker right now.

I'm all for being easy on the eye and relying on possession and pace, but not at the expense of being good at football. I think we can all see where Potter is trying to go with this side but it doesn't mean the ginger Dalek (and Chris Wilder) haven't done tremendous jobs relying on power and organisation - I wouldn't say either of them are particularly bad to watch.

It certainly wasn't my intention to come over as arrogant and I most definitely wasn't looking down on their players.

Of the many things Burnley are 'gloriously flawed' isn't one of them.
They are the epitome of cutting their cloth accordingly, all power to them.

But on the back of 2 seasons filled with stoic resistance I'm thoroughly enjoying the 'gloriously flawed' Albion again as opposed to another season of attritional football.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Ironic isn't it? They've achieved what we've clearly stated we are aiming for - to become a top 10 side.

True.

It doesn't look like Dyche will be content to continue to work miracles, with no other ambition from the club.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

To be a top ten side we need to sort out how to score goals. I think our defence is good enough, but we don’t have people capable of scoring consistently. So it is a problem that won’t go away overnight. We need a longer term strategy and the players or players with potential to create and score goals. Most of the big money attacking signings have been championship quality, not Premier League. Some may have potential but not all, and those who do need much better players to play with. It will take money and time, something that, in this environment, we are short of and will feed our anxieties in the lower reaches of the table.

 

[Peter Grummit]

Defence not the problem as the stats show.
Alzate in centre mid next season please. He has shown he is probably the best in the club at keeping the ball under pressure. Propper and Stephens should be backup next year.

Plan B is to go long to BDB on the wing. Nothing wrong with that, we employed it 2nd half v Leicester and Vardy didn't get a sniff.

Plenty of progress this year. Bissouma and Webster not perfect but have learnt plenty and improved. Add White and another striker and we won't be far off.

Sent from my SM-A105G using Tapatalk

 

[Uh_huh_him]

To be a top ten side we need to sort out how to score goals. I think our defence is good enough, but we don’t have people capable of scoring consistently. So it is a problem that won’t go away overnight. We need a longer term strategy and the players or players with potential to create and score goals. Most of the big money attacking signings have been championship quality, not Premier League. Some may have potential but not all, and those who do need much better players to play with. It will take money and time, something that, in this environment, we are short of and will feed our anxieties in the lower reaches of the table.

Look at the ages of our big money attacking signings.

Maupay is 24, Trossard is 25, Jahanbaksh 26, McAllister 23.

Phrases like "not capable of scoring consistently" is missing the point somewhat.

Let's discuss this point at the end of next season, if our ability to score goals has not improved or gone backwards then I will agree with you.

But as it stands right now, I think our "Big Money" signings will be producing more than a single proven Prem quality striker would have done (for approximately the same price)

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Look at the ages of our big money attacking signings.

Maupay is 24, Trossard is 25, Jahanbaksh 26, McAllister 23.

Phrases like "not capable of scoring consistently" is missing the point somewhat.

Let's discuss this point at the end of next season, if our ability to score goals has not improved or gone backwards then I will agree with you.

But as it stands right now, I think our "Big Money" signings will be producing more than a single proven Prem quality striker would have done (for approximately the same price)

I think the missing point is “Some may have potential but not all, and those who do need much better players to play with“.
The players you speak of need better players if they are going to develop as you think/hope.

 

[The Fits]

Look at the ages of our big money attacking signings.

Maupay is 24, Trossard is 25, Jahanbaksh 26, McAllister 23.

Phrases like "not capable of scoring consistently" is missing the point somewhat.

Let's discuss this point at the end of next season, if our ability to score goals has not improved or gone backwards then I will agree with you.

But as it stands right now, I think our "Big Money" signings will be producing more than a single proven Prem quality striker would have done (for approximately the same price)

Mac is only 21.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Can't really argue with any of that well written report. This made me chuckle...

".......even the cardboard cutouts at the Amex Stadium could have been forgiven for leaving early to beat the traffic."

A joke that was made on here when the cardboard cut-outs were first mooted.

I know Jonathan Liew and he's a nice guy and a very talented writer - despite his bid for permanent membership of Pseud's Corner - but he is more of a cricket man than a football expert, as some of his comments reveal. The defence isn't the problem, but the defending in midfield is. Players don't cover back quickly enough and they leave runners unmarked.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I think the missing point is “Some may have potential but not all, and those who do need much better players to play with“.
The players you speak of need better players if they are going to develop as you think/hope.

You mean like Lamptey, Bissouma, Alzate? or are they also not good enough?
It sounds like you saying we have to buy in better players all over the pitch, rather than develop our own talent.

To me the situation is very different.
I believe we have experienced players (Mooy/Gross/Propper/Stephens/Dunk) who are good enough to give our talent time to develop to meet their true potential.

If we have obvious gaps in our first team squad, and none of the emerging talent can bridge the gap adequately, then I'm sure we will buy in some experienced talent to plug the gap.
In fact I think we are probably more likely to do this once our younger players start to prove themselves more at this level.
Because there will be less and less of a need to spend £50 - 60m per season on 3 or 4 gaps in the first team.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

You mean like Lamptey, Bissouma, Alzate? or are they also not good enough?
It sounds like you saying we have to buy in better players all over the pitch, rather than develop our own talent.

To me the situation is very different.
I believe we have experienced players (Mooy/Gross/Propper/Stephens/Dunk) who are good enough to give our talent time to develop to meet their true potential.

If we have obvious gaps in our first team squad, and none of the emerging talent can bridge the gap adequately, then I'm sure we will buy in some experienced talent to plug the gap.
In fact I think we are probably more likely to do this once our younger players start to prove themselves more at this level.
Because there will be less and less of a need to spend £50 - 60m per season on 3 or 4 gaps in the first team.

I think you are wrong in terms of players good enough to develop the youngsters. I am not convinced that Mooy, Gross, Propper, or Stevens are good examples of what is needed, and Dunk is a defender.
Think we will have to agree to differ on this.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Not many fans of us in the comments to that piece.

General consensus, probably fairly, is that we've been lucky to be the 4th worst team in the league during our time here.

This is rubbish. Barring a week or so right at the start of 2017/18 we haven't spent ANY time in the relegation places, our defensive record is comfortably better than all 6 sides relegated and all 3 currently occupying the relegation places, it has been better than Southampton and Bournemouth every season and we've had a striker carrying a goal threat (Murray, now Maupay).

We've always managed to pick up useful points with battling performances and rarely get tonked by anyone outside of the Champions League sides.



We've had a lot of draws this season and in most of them we've had the better of the play.