Gov't: 'No case' for BML2

[The Large One]

I still need to be convinced that a route from London via Sutton, Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham and Arundel with the only construction needed being the "missing" spur south of Arundel would be any less practical than the BML2 project. This route would avoid the bottleneck at Croydon. Perhaps those more knowledgable with Railway matters could help me?

The Arun Valley line, and much of the Outer London lines are basically one-up, one-down. Express trains would not be able to get past stopping trains. Taking a train from London to Brighton via Arundel which would take 2 hours rather than 50 minutes kind of undermines the whole point of the project.

Besides, the plans for BML2 avoids the bottleneck at Croydon.

 

[Notters]

I disagree entirely, there are lots of people who would indirectly benefit from improved infrastructure, why shouldn't they indirectly fund it as well

Indeed. Everyone, I would argue.

 

[Notters]

I remember those signs, too (summer holidays in Cornwall).

However, I think it was just a plan to improve the route generally and there was never any proposal that it would all be dual carriageway, let alone a motorway.

I think that the idea was to by pass Worthing north of Shoreham / Beeding and rejoin the existing A27 near Patching to go over a new bridge at Crossbush and rejoin the A27 west of Arundel Hospital and then by pass Chichester to the north. The idea nI thought, was a dual carriageway that would possibly be upgraded to a motorway perhaps with tolls as in France.

It wasn't "a plan" at all, but simply how the Highways Agency referred to this particularly trunk road. There have, as you point out, been plans including a Worthing bypass (f only!), something like that shown below. I think [MENTION=6]Lord Bracknell[/MENTION] knows more.

 

[BensGrandad]

Was it never an agreed plan that was shelved due to the costs? If not why did they CP the houses in Warren Rd Worthing and leave them empty for years then sell them back at ridiculously low prices compared to their original value when it became known that nothing was going to happen about the ring road.

 

[Paskman]

Uckfield to Lewes was closed thanks to the bloke who was arguably worse than Beeching - Ernest Marples. East Sussex Council wanted to put a relief road in around Lewes and so put in an application to clsoe the line.

Yes the line was closed so that the Phoenix Causeway could be built. It was cheaper to close the line than build a bridge. Talk about a short term vision!

 

[Wrong-Direction]

We need to build build build, more houses, more roads, more hospitals ect plenty of money in the pot if it was all spent wisely

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[Leekbrookgull]

This. How long before the Balcombe Tunnel or the viaduct just north of Haywards Heath start to become unsafe? First time either of these things happen, or one of a dozen other Single Points of Failure, er, fail, then BML1 is completely snookered longtime.

Just look what has happened in Liverpool now looking at March 9th re-opening.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Not the same but just what is going on ?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-39151392

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The "Folkestone to Honiton Trunk Road" was the name given to what is now called the "South Coast Trunk Road" when the Ministry of Transport (as it then was) took over responsibility for maintaining and repairing a series of local roads that had previously been looked after by the County Councils. This happened in the early 1950s. The Ministry of Transport is now the Department for Transport and the trunk roads are now looked after by Highways England, formerly the Highways Agency.

 

[BensGrandad]

The "Folkestone to Honiton Trunk Road" was the name given to what is now called the "South Coast Trunk Road" when the Ministry of Transport (as it then was) took over responsibility for maintaining and repairing a series of local roads that had previously been looked after by the County Councils. This happened in the early 1950s. The Ministry of Transport is now the Department for Transport and the trunk roads are now looked after by Highways England, formerly the Highways Agency.

How far did the plans and work progress before being scrapped

 

[Lord Bracknell]

How far did the plans and work progress before being scrapped

There never were any "plans". The introduction of the name was merely a decision by the Ministry of Transport to indicate that the roads in question were now controlled by the government, not the local county council. That remains the case to this day.

As an example, De La Warr Road, Bexhill, is part of the trunk road. It looks pretty indistinguishable from any other street in Bexhill, including pedestrian crossings, bus stops, houses with drives that join the highway. It's a single carriageway street, not wide enough to convert to a dual carriageway. But, for all that, it is a trunk road.

 

[GT49er]

... a guy who was a director of a construction firm that built roads. No conflict of interest in closing rail lines then, no siree, bob.

He also fled the country before he was prosecuted for fraud. Nothing dodgy there ...

Not dodgy at all - he gave away/sold all his shares in the road construction company when he became Minister of Transport.







......to his wife, apparently.

 

[Gwylan]

Not dodgy at all - he gave away/sold all his shares in the road construction company when he became Minister of Transport.







......to his wife, apparently.

I've just been reading more about him. I hadn't realised that we have him to thank for parking meters, yellow lines and traffic wardens. He's had quite an impact on modern life

 

[GT49er]

The Arun Valley line, and much of the Outer London lines are basically one-up, one-down. Express trains would not be able to get past stopping trains. Taking a train from London to Brighton via Arundel which would take 2 hours rather than 50 minutes kind of undermines the whole point of the project.

The Arun Valley line could be used to relieve a little of the congestion on the BML with a spur south of Arundel to facilitate through running. Maybe not a great attraction for Brighton travellers, maybe, but perhaps not a bad option from, say, Worthing or even Shoreham. I haven't travelled the line for years, but I think some of the bigger stations would originally have had four platforms (Dorking, Horsham, perhaps? - Christ's Hospital certainly did), thus facilitating a degree of 'overtaking' - possibly that could be restored?
The problem with the Arun Valley line is that most, if not all, the through trains leave it at Horsham, logically in a way, to pick up Crawley traffic, but with the result that they rejoin the BML at Three Bridges - and straight into the East Croydon log jam! If more of them went up through Dorking and Sutton, they could avoid East Croydon.

 

[Cosmic Joker]

The Arun Valley line could be used to relieve a little of the congestion on the BML with a spur south of Arundel to facilitate through running. Maybe not a great attraction for Brighton travellers, maybe, but perhaps not a bad option from, say, Worthing or even Shoreham. I haven't travelled the line for years, but I think some of the bigger stations would originally have had four platforms (Dorking, Horsham, perhaps? - Christ's Hospital certainly did), thus facilitating a degree of 'overtaking' - possibly that could be restored?
The problem with the Arun Valley line is that most, if not all, the through trains leave it at Horsham, logically in a way, to pick up Crawley traffic, but with the result that they rejoin the BML at Three Bridges - and straight into the East Croydon log jam! If more of them went up through Dorking and Sutton, they could avoid East Croydon.

Horsham has four platforms now and Dorking has three. The loop platforms (i.e the ones to the side) are used for turning round (reversing) terminating trains rather than for fasts to overtake flows. The platform on the north side is used for Horsham - Dorking - Epsom - Victoria trains and the one on the south side is used for Horsham - London Bridge stoppers via Gatwick and Redhill. The fast trains calling at Horsham from the south coast all go via Gatwick and Croydon because:
1) There is a good market for direct trains to Gatwick from Portsmouth and Southampton and from CHichester and Bognor to Crawley, Gatwick and Croydon, whereas there is litle demand from any of those places to Dorking and Epsom; what there is, is covered by the change at Horsham.
2) The Mole Valley line is full to the brim with stopping commuter trains on the Leatherhead to Epsom section which carries trains from Horsham and Dorking to Victoria (via Sutton), Dorking and Effingham Junction to Waterloo (via Wimbledon) and Guildford to London Bridge via Sutton and West Croydon, so there are no spare paths for expresses
3) The Mole Valley route, from Horsham to where it joins the main line into Victoria at Streatham, is very twisty with low speed limits, especially over junctions, so is no faster than the main line despite being shorter, even if you could find a path without a stopper being in the way.
4) The section from Horsham to Dorking is a run-down timewarp with ancient semaphore signalling which can't cope with more than 2 trains an hour reliably or three trains at a push due to signal sections miles in length and low track maintenance regime which keeps the speed down and gives a rough old ride. It's also been known to be closed for weeks on end due to landslips in wet winters.

The key to improving capacity on the BML is extra tracks and flying junctions on the section through Croydon and more platforms at East Croydon, Which is Network Rail's plan for the early 2020's (Control period 6 in Network Rail speak); when that's done, along with an extra platform at Redhill which is due soon then attention can turn to more junctions further down the line, such as where the Eastbourne line diverges at Wivelsfield and where the Arun Valley trains move between the fasts and the slows north of Three Bridges. I just hope that finally doing something about the Balcombe tunnel gets added at some point.

A good article about the plans for the line through Croydon here. http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/
All this does a lot more for London-Brighton capacity than BML2 whilst keeping passengers on the faster direct route that they want to be on, rather than sending them on a diversion on a slow and longer two track route all though the countryside and then an even slower two track suburban route bypassing Croydon.

 

[beorhthelm]

The key to improving capacity on the BML is extra tracks and flying junctions on the section through Croydon and more platforms at East Croydon, Which is Network Rail's plan for the early 2020's (Control period 6 in Network Rail speak); when that's done, along with an extra platform at Redhill which is due soon then attention can turn to more junctions further down the line, such as where the Eastbourne line diverges at Wivelsfield and where the Arun Valley trains move between the fasts and the slows north of Three Bridges. I just hope that finally doing something about the Balcombe tunnel gets added at some point.

A good article about the plans for the line through Croydon here. http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/
All this does a lot more for London-Brighton capacity than BML2 whilst keeping passengers on the faster direct route that they want to be on, rather than sending them on a diversion on a slow and longer two track route all though the countryside and then an even slower two track suburban route bypassing Croydon.

thanks for that link, i knew i'd read about the changes planed for East Croydon somewhere. section 7 covers some changes already going on at East Croydon, if anyone ever wondered as i have why the new bridge is set back so far, theres space to the west of platform 1/2 for another platform. alot of tinkering already planned for East Croydon, from Windmill Junction to Couslden. see also https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...-East-Route-Sussex-Area-Route-Study-FINAL.pdf, page 96 for note on BML2.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Completely agree with you BG. I am old enough to also remember the schemes at both Worthing and Arundel being promoted. Not as a motorway but to dual carriageway the A27 through West Sussex. Houses were compulsory purchased in Worthing and stood empty for years until Highway Agency sold them again and kept the profits in house price increases.

Yep I'll third that.