Gov't: 'No case' for BML2

[beorhthelm]

AND the Ouse Valley Viaduct. AND the doubling of line capacity south of Haywards Heath. AND the congestion at East Croydon which can't cope with any more capacity.

BML2 isn't planned to go through East Croydon. It doesn't have the capacity.

BML is tits-up every day - dispute or no dispute.

note you avoid the crucial question: how much you willing to pay for this option?

 

[ofco8]

That wasnt a myth as building had started hence the road at Crossbush that was to go over the River Adur and by pass Arundel is just an eyesore going nowhere now and serving no purpose.

The houses in Warren Rd Worthing were all compulsory purchased but when the plan was scrapped resold as very low prices. So was no myth just the costs went up dramatically./

Completely agree with you BG. I am old enough to also remember the schemes at both Worthing and Arundel being promoted. Not as a motorway but to dual carriageway the A27 through West Sussex. Houses were compulsory purchased in Worthing and stood empty for years until Highway Agency sold them again and kept the profits in house price increases.

 

[The Large One]

note you avoid the crucial question: how much you willing to pay for this option?

I haven't avoided it (a) because you haven't asked it and (b) it's completely the wrong question to ask.

A far more pertinent one is - how much does Sussex and Kent have to pay to not have this option?

 

[Boys 9d]

I still need to be convinced that a route from London via Sutton, Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham and Arundel with the only construction needed being the "missing" spur south of Arundel would be any less practical than the BML2 project. This route would avoid the bottleneck at Croydon. Perhaps those more knowledgable with Railway matters could help me?

 

[kevo]

As others have said, the closure of the Uckfield to Lewes line wasn't part of the Beeching cuts - it happened a few years later. I believe it was actually making a profit at the time. I can't think what possible advantage there was in closing an 8-mile stretch of track that linked up the local network and provided an alternative route to the Brighton mainline. Ridiculous decision.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Another blow to Kirby (who is a passionate supporter of BML2) having had his wings clipped regarding his role in Brexit.

 

[Hereford Gull]

All developments like rail and road should be funded by the people who use them, no taxpayer money should be involved, then a proper business case would be needed.

 

[Chicken Run]

Commuting between Brighton and London just seems like less and less a sustainable option anymore, despite the pitifully small distance in a straight line between the two points. Almost feel genuinely sorry for the DFLs.

Well the "good" news is at present they are staying away!

 

[Notters]

Excuse my ignorance here. I live in Uckfield and, as it happens, the railway tootles across the countryside every half an hour about a mile in the distance. It's a single track.
Now I cant for the life of me work out how anyone is going to get a double track along here and off to London. As for going off towards Brighton, heck we've built on most of the land between Uckfield Station and the A22 and beyond that is countryside. Build a dual track express line through there, never happen I'm afraid.

Er, there was a double track right up until about 1990 and there is plenty of room for it. None of the track bed has been built on except in lewes, but that section doesn't matter as there is an alternative route via Hamsey.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

But HS2 will get you to Birmingham 20mins quicker and that is worth it's weight in....? (over to you NSC!!)

I used to regularly commute from Coventry to London. The quickest train was 57 minutes (and then it took me forever at rush hour to get from Euston to Victoria)

Nobody in the area wants HS2. It's pointless. I've said for years the investment would be better in the South East. HS2 by the way has now been approved despite large opposition to it.

 

[Gwylan]

All developments like rail and road should be funded by the people who use them, no taxpayer money should be involved, then a proper business case would be needed.

The government is moving towards doing this with rail but hasn't with road ... yet. It would be interesting to hear how the people who want a dual carriageway A27 would be happy to pay to use the road. A £5 toll?

 

[Scampi]

All developments like rail and road should be funded by the people who use them, no taxpayer money should be involved, then a proper business case would be needed.

I disagree entirely, there are lots of people who would indirectly benefit from improved infrastructure, why shouldn't they indirectly fund it as well

 

[Brovion]

Balcombe tunnel and Purley Croydon seem to be the obvious areas needing repair/improvment. then the line just north of Croydon to London Bridge, to lift the speed restrictions too (though not sure why they are, assume its track problems).



Gatwick was going to spend a few billion improving the line through to London terminals. BML would be better if the signalling could handle more trains up through to Croydon, thats them main bottle neck and one BML2 would have only added to. i think there is work to address this anyway, so we'll see improvments.

it would be great to have a second line through Sussex, but basic cost/benefit says its not such a clever idea as it wouldnt be used outside rush hour. put it this way, for a back up line to cover the 15-20 days a year the BML is really TITSUP, how much more would you pay? 10%, 25%, 50%?

No they weren't! The bottleneck is East Croydon and the lack of tracks; all they ever talked about was new trains, 'improved signalling' and changes to Redhill. On its own the Gatwick expansion would have made the problem worse, and our sole hope would have been that the Authorities might have noticed and not just believed Gatwick's publicity machine.

 

[In The Rough]

Uckfield to Lewes was closed thanks to the bloke who was arguably worse than Beeching - Ernest Marples. East Sussex Council wanted to put a relief road in around Lewes and so put in an application to clsoe the line.

 

[Gwylan]

Uckfield to Lewes was closed thanks to the bloke who was arguably worse than Beeching - Ernest Marples.

... a guy who was a director of a construction firm that built roads. No conflict of interest in closing rail lines then, no siree, bob.

He also fled the country before he was prosecuted for fraud. Nothing dodgy there ...

 

[beorhthelm]

No they weren't! The bottleneck is East Croydon and the lack of tracks; all they ever talked about was new trains, 'improved signalling' and changes to Redhill....

improved signalling is improving the line. signalling is the major issue with capacity on the line, you can only put so many trains as you can safely control, by upgrading the signalling you increase capacity. point is there was additional investment on the table, which is in Gatwick's interest as expansion needs to compete with Heathrow and getting suits between the City and airport reliably and quickly would help that.

 

[Norman Potting]

Sorry, it is an urban myth.

There is absolutely no evidence that such a route was ever planned seriously by the Ministry of Transport.

The only evidence yet found supporting that theory was that in 1936, the Institute of Highways Engineers suggested a network of motorways which included one across the south of the country, though north of the current M27 between the Taunton area, across near Winchester and ending at Dover. It was almost instantly rejected by the Government.

The following is a link showing the original 1975 strip map of the M27 plans: http://pathetic.org.uk/unfinished/m27/map/

As you can see, the original plans were only as far as Chichester.

I clearly remember "Folkestone to Honiton Trunk Road" signs by the numerous roadworks we used to pass on the way to Devon when I were a lad. This was on the occasions we went the A303 (pre M25) way rather that the via the lovely (if you are in no particular rush) A272. Both routes have had affectionate travelogue books written about them, "A303 Highway to the Sun" and "A272 An Ode to a Road", the latter by an Anglophile Dutch couple!

 

[Brovion]

improved signalling is improving the line. signalling is the major issue with capacity on the line, you can only put so many trains as you can safely control, by upgrading the signalling you increase capacity. point is there was additional investment on the table, which is in Gatwick's interest as expansion needs to compete with Heathrow and getting suits between the City and airport reliably and quickly would help that.

No, it's just tinkering and wouldn't even be enough to cope with what the line currently has to deal with let alone the increased traffic from the Gatwic expansion, the increased traffic from the growing population, and the fact that we're still depending on Victorian engineering and Victorian planning. That's before you even factor in what happens when 'normal' running issues (power failures, signal failures, train failures, staff shortages etc) disrupt services - and that's assuming your superficial improvements solve the congestion issue.

 

[sully]

I clearly remember "Folkestone to Honiton Trunk Road" signs by the numerous roadworks we used to pass on the way to Devon when I were a lad. This was on the occasions we went the A303 (pre M25) way rather that the via the lovely (if you are in no particular rush) A272. Both routes have had affectionate travelogue books written about them, "A303 Highway to the Sun" and "A272 An Ode to a Road", the latter by an Anglophile Dutch couple!

I remember those signs, too (summer holidays in Cornwall).

However, I think it was just a plan to improve the route generally and there was never any proposal that it would all be dual carriageway, let alone a motorway.

 

[BensGrandad]

I remember those signs, too (summer holidays in Cornwall).

However, I think it was just a plan to improve the route generally and there was never any proposal that it would all be dual carriageway, let alone a motorway.

I think that the idea was to by pass Worthing north of Shoreham / Beeding and rejoin the existing A27 near Patching to go over a new bridge at Crossbush and rejoin the A27 west of Arundel Hospital and then by pass Chichester to the north. The idea nI thought, was a dual carriageway that would possibly be upgraded to a motorway perhaps with tolls as in France.