[Finance] Goldman Sachs Boss Responds To Junior Staff Request For 80 Hour Working Week Cap

[Beach Hut]

My cousins' son works for JP Morgan, been there around 10 odd years after joining grad scheme. Worked round the world and will probably be financially secure for life by the time he gets to 50.

If you want to put in the hours and commitment you will be rewarded, all about choices.

 

[Coldeanseagull]

I work to live, not live to work. Besides, I'm a lazy bar steward so tend to do just enough to live just comfortably enough! phew!!

 

[dazzer6666]

My cousins' son works for JP Morgan, been there around 10 odd years after joining grad scheme. Worked round the world and will probably be financially secure for life by the time he gets to 50.

If you want to put in the hours and commitment you will be rewarded, all about choices.

Possibly, although the number of 40-50 year olds in banks still flogging themselves after an expensive divorce or two (losing half or more of their pension funds plus their house), having very young kids from their second marriage (school fees etc) and a big mortgage is quite staggering..........

 

[portlock seagull]

I stepped away from banking 6 months ago after 36 years and 4 organisations (sadly never on anything like IB or GS money and not in any front office role but in head office/group environments so saw across the firm).......the industry is full of people who are so money/status oriented they can’t give it up. Huge houses (and huge mortgages), competitive car-buying and holiday-taking in a never ending cycle of showing off. I’ve literally sat in meetings where people have been arguing about why their Aston is a better model than the other guys. As a result, loads have to keep burning away until they can’t do it any longer (or they get summarily exited by the organisation), or their egos are such they simply can’t give it up.............you wouldn’t believe the numbers taking out enormous mortgages in their late 40s for that ‘dream house’ (often to keep the other half happy, who is stuck at home bored and probably knocking off her personal trainer anyway). Add to all that the politicking and BS you have to do keep up to keep climbing the greasy pole it’s pretty grim at times........but at 30 or 40 you don’t really know any different, and are likely ‘stuck’ with commitments anyway - so play the game as much as you need to.

I’ve heard of this lifestyle entrapment, it’s odd to think behind those doors of huge houses and expensive cars on the drive that many still have major money worries. It’s all keeping up with the Jones’s as my mum used to say. I’ve long reached a place where I’m grateful for what I have not what I don’t. Saying that, be good to get a truly world class striker...

 

[dazzer6666]

I’ve heard of this lifestyle entrapment, it’s odd to think behind those doors of huge houses and expensive cars on the drive that many still have major money worries. It’s all keeping up with the Jones’s as my mum used to say. I’ve long reached a place where I’m grateful for what I have not what I don’t. Saying that, be good to get a truly world class striker...

Likewise......was planning my exit for a while, just wasn’t sure exactly how and when it was going to happen. Live more modestly and don’t get sucked in to all that rubbish....end result I can now get off the hamster wheel and enjoy life. Poorer but richer

 

[Bry Nylon]

Likewise......was planning my exit for a while, just wasn’t sure exactly how and when it was going to happen. Live more modestly and don’t get sucked in to all that rubbish....end result I can now get off the hamster wheel and enjoy life. Poorer but richer

I reckon you’ve found the secret. I’m envious but not in a bitter way. I’m pleased for you and wish I’d made better choices.

 

[Gwylan]

The guy presenting was positive about them but did throw in that he hardly saw his young children.

Possibly, although the number of 40-50 year olds in banks still flogging themselves after an expensive divorce or two (losing half or more of their pension funds plus their house), having very young kids from their second marriage (school fees etc) and a big mortgage is quite staggering..........

One thing I don't understand when I read about 95 to 100+ hours a week is where these guys (and they're nearly all guys) find time to meet other people, hold down relationships and have kids.

I briefly ran my own company about 30 years ago, regularly did 90 hour weeks and I was shattered most of the time. I scarcely went out or socialised with my friends. I had a girlfriend before I started the business but, if I hadn't, there was no way I could have met someone.

How do people working 15 or 16 hour days find time for social interaction? And, if they have, how on earth do they cope with working those hours after having been deprived of sleep with a baby in the house?

 

[dazzer6666]

One thing I don't understand when I read about 95 to 100+ hours a week is where these guys (and they're nearly all guys) find time to meet other people, hold down relationships and have kids.

I briefly ran my own company about 30 years ago, regularly did 90 hour weeks and I was shattered most of the time. I scarcely went out or socialised with my friends. I had a girlfriend before I started the business but, if I hadn't, there was no way I could have met someone.

How do people working 15 or 16 hour days find time for social interaction? And, if they have, how on earth do they cope with working those hours after having been deprived of sleep with a baby in the house?

Not sure how lockdown has affected things (probably even more divorces as they are at home) but loads of them live in London during the week and are only home at weekends, so being in the office from 6 or 7am - 11pm or later isn’t at all uncommon. Then add in any work they would take home at weekends the hours add up very quickly. The blocks of smart flats in Canary Wharf are full of sparsely-furnished units with sole occupants living off ready-meals and Deliveroo......my former boss did exactly this (yes - second marriage, two big mortgages, young kids at home in East Anglia and in his early 50s.......and a sports car).

Of course, having a flat to stay in during the week also leads to other temptations I guess.

 

[Gwylan]

Not sure how lockdown has affected things (probably even more divorces as they are at home) but loads of them live in London during the week and are only home at weekends, so being in the office from 6 or 7am - 11pm or later isn’t at all uncommon.

That would explain how they can sleep with young kids in the house (although they must have amazingly tolerant wives) but it doesn't explain how they meet partners if they're working till 11 at night.

 

[dazzer6666]

That would explain how they can sleep with young kids in the house (although they must have amazingly tolerant wives) but it doesn't explain how they meet partners if they're working till 11 at night.

They aren’t the only people in the office..........

The wives (at least some of those I’ve met) don’t like it much but as you say they are tolerant - the flow of ready cash helps them through the difficult days I think.

 

[Gwylan]

They aren’t the only people in the office..........

Yeah, obviously they can meet people at work but, from what I've seen and heard, these offices are heavily male dominated. Yes, there are secretaries and support staff but they're not the ones working till 11.

And, each to his or her tastes, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want to work with someone for 16 hours a day and live with her as well. In fact, I know I don't: I've been in one relationship with a work colleague and she found a new job within months of us going out. Those few months were not great.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Follow-up piece in the Guardian today gives an interesting perspective:

'First-year bankers are weighing up the costs. Starting on a base salary of roughly £50,000, analysts who regularly work 18-hour shifts, six days a week, will earn roughly £8.90 an hour before tax – less than the £10.85 living wage for London – unless they last until bonus season.“If you don’t get your bonus, you’ll get paid less by the hour than a McDonald’s employee."'

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...bankers-rebel-over-18-hour-shifts-and-low-pay

 

[dazzer6666]

Yeah, obviously they can meet people at work but, from what I've seen and heard, these offices are heavily male dominated. Yes, there are secretaries and support staff but they're not the ones working till 11.

And, each to his or her tastes, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want to work with someone for 16 hours a day and live with her as well. In fact, I know I don't: I've been in one relationship with a work colleague and she found a new job within months of us going out. Those few months were not great.

They used to be but it’s far more equally split M/F these days at all levels (our Executive Committee in my last role was around 50/50)........and at somewhere like GS virtually everyone is expected to work v long hours.

The ‘support staff’ at somewhere like GS are typically the younger, ambitious grads/newer joiners who’ll do almost anything to get ahead. Doesn’t take much working out. I agree with you but the long hours throws people together too - have seen it several times (and had to deal with the fallout a couple of times in my own team as well. Pretty unpleasant).

 

[dazzer6666]

Follow-up piece in the Guardian today gives an interesting perspective:

'First-year bankers are weighing up the costs. Starting on a base salary of roughly £50,000, analysts who regularly work 18-hour shifts, six days a week, will earn roughly £8.90 an hour before tax – less than the £10.85 living wage for London – unless they last until bonus season.“If you don’t get your bonus, you’ll get paid less by the hour than a McDonald’s employee."'

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...bankers-rebel-over-18-hour-shifts-and-low-pay

................but after 10-15 years in McDonalds you’ll still be on £10 an hour. The former GS analyst will probably be an Executive Director at that point, on a mid six figure package, and on track to become an MD when it becomes a 7 figure package (or 8, for the most successful).

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

................but after 10-15 years in McDonalds you’ll still be on £10 an hour. The former GS analyst will probably be an Executive Director at that point, on a mid six figure package, and on track to become an MD when it becomes a 7 figure package (or 8, for the most successful).

It's an almost perfect Faustian pact. All they want in exchange is your SOUL

 

[Springal]

Just the way the world works isn't it. Some people opt for an easier job / lifestyle and settle for the modest salary because of it - others driven by success and money and sacrifice comfort and ease of life. Nothing like GS at all but I work in the tech industry and decided to move to London at 20 for 2 years to kick start my career while most my mates had crappy jobs or were at uni as I wanted a bit more than that. I worked for a global manufacturer aged 26 and was the only sales person below 40 in the UK earning pretty decent wedge - but working probably 60 hour weeks.

Made a lot of compromises along the way which cost relationships etc, but still happy with the choices I made 15 years on as it kick started my career and now in a position on London wages still and working from home with never having to go back to the daily commute (I actually stopped in 2016 anyway.) Compare to my current missus who works for a small local firm on a nice easy 9-5 job with little stress, even in the office was a 10 minute commute and no expectations outside of work. Different strokes for different folks I guess - but from what little I do know, no-one goes into a job at Goldman Sachs not knowing what is expected from them - and what the reward is at the end of it.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It's an almost perfect Faustian pact. All they want in exchange is your SOUL

Switch it the other way around and it suggests the people complaining in this story want it all; the GS opportunities and money combined with ‘normal’ working hours. Perhaps they are the ultimate greedy bankers ?

 

[dazzer6666]

It's an almost perfect Faustian pact. All they want in exchange is your SOUL

Pretty much, and then some more..............never know how many fall by the wayside either, but it's a lot. I've seen elements of the GS-type culture at various times (the most obvious being some of the Barclays Capital people during the Bob Diamond era) and it's pretty unpleasant to be honest, glad I was never quite close enough to the centre of that part of the bank to be fully sucked into it - being on the periphery was bad enough at times. Plenty of brilliantly intelligent people too though.

Our division essentially merged with BarCap at one point. Our own functional head (who was ex GS ironically) mentioned to the new COO that the team had become 'extremely busy and were working long hours...something we need to keep an eye on....etc'. The (Barcap) COO ripped him a new one in front of several of us. Sample line from a 15 minute rant :

'I came in at 6am this morning. There wasn't A SINGLE ONE of your ****ing 'busy' staff here so you're talking s**t. When I see the vending machines empty at midnight because no-one has had time to go and get any food, then I MIGHT accept you're getting busy. At the moment, you're all taking the ****ing p*ss.'

 

[dazzer6666]

Just the way the world works isn't it. Some people opt for an easier job / lifestyle and settle for the modest salary because of it - others driven by success and money and sacrifice comfort and ease of life. Nothing like GS at all but I work in the tech industry and decided to move to London at 20 for 2 years to kick start my career while most my mates had crappy jobs or were at uni as I wanted a bit more than that. I worked for a global manufacturer aged 26 and was the only sales person below 40 in the UK earning pretty decent wedge - but working probably 60 hour weeks.

Made a lot of compromises along the way which cost relationships etc, but still happy with the choices I made 15 years on as it kick started my career and now in a position on London wages still and working from home with never having to go back to the daily commute (I actually stopped in 2016 anyway.) Compare to my current missus who works for a small local firm on a nice easy 9-5 job with little stress, even in the office was a 10 minute commute and no expectations outside of work. Different strokes for different folks I guess - but from what little I do know, no-one goes into a job at Goldman Sachs not knowing what is expected from them - and what the reward is at the end of it.

Switch it the other way around and it suggests the people complaining in this story want it all; the GS opportunities and money combined with ‘normal’ working hours. Perhaps they are the ultimate greedy bankers ?

Exactly. No-one should be surprised what GS expects from people, so publicly moaning about it is a bit stupid IMO. You knew the respective rewards and sacrifices before you started.

 

[martin tyler]

Possibly, although the number of 40-50 year olds in banks still flogging themselves after an expensive divorce or two (losing half or more of their pension funds plus their house), having very young kids from their second marriage (school fees etc) and a big mortgage is quite staggering..........

Yep. I know a guy in his early 50s on a staggering amount of money. However 2 divorces later he thinks he will be working well in to his late 60s. Has 2 older kids gone through private school and finishing up. Is paying his 1st mortgage still and has a 5/6 year old from his 2nd marriage and basically paying those fees, mortgage and supporting her. And now has a partner 20 plus years younger. Very attractive but he sees her 10 hours a week and they live together.
He is addicted to making as much money as he can but when you get a drink or 2 inside him I think he wishes he was still married to his 2nd wife and had listened and cut down the hours a bit and actually spent time with her and his youngest. Has never found the right balance and personally I think he will end up alone but with a lot of money which is quite sad in some respects