GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[Kalimantan Gull]

I'm atheist and I wouldn't agree with that. On a day-to-day basis I see far more good done by religion than bad. However some of the bad things are so bad that perhaps they balance out the frequency of the good things.

The good done by religion tends to be the kind of good that's also done by non-religious groups such as the Red Cross, or Youth clubs or schools. I won't deny that many churches and mosques and synagogues can do lots of good within their community, but I tend to think that its largely good people doing good things because they are good people, not because God told them to do it - (which is the only logical stance for an atheist to take as there is no God to tell them what to do).

The bad is well documented, ranging from wars to terrorism to child abuse to cruel and unusual punishments

 

[seagullmouse]

good effort seagull mouse, particularly like the last line.

Thanks piersa, I was quite proud

 

[piersa]

Funny, I prayed that you would answer my reply and you did. Hallowed be thy name seagullmouse. God rules.

 

[piersa]

You were mocking my intelligence mr Biggums and I was pointing out that more than likely you have a lower iQ than me. Religious belief doesn't guarantee low iQ, although they correlate strongly, and there will always be exceptions to this rule. From what I have heard you are not an exception.

Seagullmouse. Best ignoring Tyrone/Mr Koresh, i think he is beyond help. He needs to visit the church of Borat for help.

 

[sten_super]

The good done by religion tends to be the kind of good that's also done by non-religious groups such as the Red Cross, or Youth clubs or schools. I won't deny that many churches and mosques and synagogues can do lots of good within their community, but I tend to think that its largely good people doing good things because they are good people, not because God told them to do it - (which is the only logical stance for an atheist to take as there is no God to tell them what to do).

The bad is well documented, ranging from wars to terrorism to child abuse to cruel and unusual punishments

But isn't that double standards? You are effectively saying good deeds are done out of an inherent goodness, and bad things are done because of religion?

I'd agree that the people that do good things are fundamentally good people, given a structure or a sense of community by their religion. But I'd also say that the bad things are done by fundamentally bad people, who are given an opportunity to do bad by that same structure.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

But isn't that double standards? You are effectively saying good deeds are done out of an inherent goodness, and bad things are done because of religion?

I'd agree that the people that do good things are fundamentally good people, given a structure or a sense of community by their religion. But I'd also say that the bad things are done by fundamentally bad people, who are given an opportunity to do bad by that same structure.

Yes, I think you've made a fair point there.

I feel like I'm right though, but can't quite put my finger on how

I'm trying to think what the 'good' equivalency of suicide bombers is though; or the good equivalency of the crusades; or the good equivalency of telling small children that they'll go to this firey never-ending hell if they don't say their prayers every night

I think its because people are fundamentally good and fundamentally want to help people in their communities, church or no church; but fundamentalists can twist words to get people to do evil things for them; and I don't feel the two are equivalent

 

[djm21]

...I'm trying to think what the 'good' equivalency of suicide bombers is though;

Doing the devil's work under the banner of religion. Giving religion a bad name in the process.

or the good equivalency of the crusades;

The crusades were a reaction to the THREAT of islam taking over the holy land of Israel. If Christendom is under attack it's upto Christian countries to help avert the threat.

fundamentalists

= BAD apples in a fundamentally GOOD institution


As someone said in an earlier post. Religion sometimes gives GOD a bad name. And there lies the crux of the problem, WE are merely flesh, and are inevitably going to fall WAY short of the mark in GODS eyes. Hence why he sent JC to SAVE us as we all on the verge of being wiped out.

 

[teaboy]

Many people do bad things in the name of a wide variety of things, including 'god'. Many people also do good things in the name of these same things, including 'god'.

All this shows is that some people are do good things, others do bad things. Belief in (or the existence of) any god(s) is largely irrelevant.

Personally I feel that more bad things have been done in the name of religion than good things. The crusades - on both sides. Various different holocausts. Assassinations and terrorist attacks. Missionaries destroying aboriginal cultures.

This certainly doesn't make ALL believers bad, but it certainly points towards the manipulative power of the idea of god. We should be very wary of these ideas ESPECIALLY as they are without all foundation.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Doing the devil's work under the banner of religion. Giving religion a bad name in the process.

As someone said in an earlier post. Religion sometimes gives GOD a bad name. And there lies the crux of the problem, WE are merely flesh, and are inevitably going to fall WAY short of the mark in GODS eyes. Hence why he sent JC to SAVE us as we all on the verge of being wiped out.

I have sympathy with a true 'good' religious person in the nature of so many problems. And you acknowledge that leaders of religions can use that power to make people do evil, so fair play. It becomes a zero-sum game I suppose, would be better off without it? Incidentally one theory that Dawkins subscribes to is that religion has no adaptive benefit or evolutionary advantage to humans but is merely a by-product of other beneficial behaviours.

or the good equivalency of telling small children that they'll go to this firey never-ending hell if they don't say their prayers every night

Its interesting that you didn't address this point though.... which is clearly the way that religious leaders get power over their congregation. Is this kind of child abuse justified? telling children they're sinners and so on, must do x and y or they're heading for hell? Hell must be a horrendous nightmarish image to a small child - put enough brimstone in your stories and you could get a child to do anything...

 

[zfleas]

The father the lord and the holy spirit are my life my universe and my world salvation is coming for us all soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bhaexpress]

You have to accept that those who believe in a 'Higher Authority' are right as they have their God on their side. It would be if we could have a play off for top spot though, God V Allah and Dhama V Budda, that sort of thing. Once we had one 'Higher Authority' to deal with we might have a few less wars. Problem is though, I'm not sure that Las Vegas has a stage big enough to host these bouts.

 

[zfleas]

You have to accept that those who believe in a 'Higher Authority' are right as they have their God on their side. It would be if we could have a play off for top spot though, God V Allah and Dhama V Budda, that sort of thing. Once we had one 'Higher Authority' to deal with we might have a few less wars. Problem is though, I'm not sure that Las Vegas has a stage big enough to host these bouts.

blasphemy!!

 

[teaboy]

The father the lord and the holy spirit are my life my universe and my world salvation is coming for us all soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? Salvation from what? Coming from where? How? Why?

 

[djm21]

Really? Salvation from what? Coming from where? How? Why?

Salvation from destruction of your eternal soul.

To put it literally.

 

[Triggaaar]

But isn't that double standards? You are effectively saying good deeds are done out of an inherent goodness, and bad things are done because of religion?

I'd agree that the people that do good things are fundamentally good people, given a structure or a sense of community by their religion. But I'd also say that the bad things are done by fundamentally bad people, who are given an opportunity to do bad by that same structure.

Yes, I think you've made a fair point there.

I feel like I'm right though, but can't quite put my finger on how

I'm trying to think what the 'good' equivalency of suicide bombers is though; or the good equivalency of the crusades; or the good equivalency of telling small children that they'll go to this firey never-ending hell if they don't say their prayers every night

It's not as simple as good people do good things and bad people do bad etc (although that still holds true for most of us). Religion comes in in a couple of ways:
Used for good it can encourage people to do more good they would otherwise do. I'm sure that church groups etc bring people together to do a lot more good for their community than they would have done off their own back. It can also help steer people back towards a good path if they were heading the wrong way.
Used for evil it can be a weapon to brainwash people into doing bad things, even though they may not have been bad people to start with. You mentioned suicide bombers, and I'm not sure they have a particularly bad criminal record. For them to kill themselves they must honestly believe that they are doing a good thing by god, so they are probably good people.

 

[djm21]

I have sympathy with a true 'good' religious person in the nature of so many problems. And you acknowledge that leaders of religions can use that power to make people do evil, so fair play. It becomes a zero-sum game I suppose, would be better off without it? Incidentally one theory that Dawkins subscribes to is that religion has no adaptive benefit or evolutionary advantage to humans but is merely a by-product of other beneficial behaviours.

I'm interested in following the ten commandments (i think we can all agree this is good), avoiding the 7 deadly sins and aspiring to the 7 heavenly virtues. If anybody follow these it will be enough. I don't concentrate on bad things, as i said human's can become corrupt, even religious leaders.

Its interesting that you didn't address this point though.... which is clearly the way that religious leaders get power over their congregation. Is this kind of child abuse justified? telling children they're sinners and so on, must do x and y or they're heading for hell? Hell must be a horrendous nightmarish image to a small child - put enough brimstone in your stories and you could get a child to do anything...

It's all there in the bible mate. Religious leaders are just quoting the bible. It's not there opinions. IT'S THE BIBLES, I.E. GODS!!!! there are splinter cells like westboro baptist church that abuse the bible however and go to extremes.

 

[zfleas]

God is a hero all those who doubt his existence will burn eternally in hell with other sinners for example hitler and dougie freedman

 

[djm21]

It's not as simple as good people do good things and bad people do bad etc (although that still holds true for most of us). Religion comes in in a couple of ways:
Used for good it can encourage people to do more good they would otherwise do. I'm sure that church groups etc bring people together to do a lot more good for their community than they would have done of their own back. It can also help steer people back towards a good path if they were heading the wrong way.
Used for evil it can be a weapon to brainwash people into doing bad things, even though they may not have been bad people to start with. You mentioned suicide bombers, and I'm not sure they have a particularly bad criminal record. For them to kill themselves they must honestly believe that they are doing a good thing by god, so they are probably good people.

You sum it up pretty well.

 

[djm21]

...burn eternally in hell... dougie freedman

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Your're right that religion is more a force for bad than a force for good, but more and more people are realising this.

And yet responsibility for the biggest losses of human life are down to regimes free from religion.

There's ample proof there to suggest a lack of religious beliefs does not make for a fairer or more compasionate society.

Funny how its said that that people without any faith are more enlightened, yet history shows that's a misnomer.