George Osborne,does he have a point ?

[beorhthelm]

A few quotes:

you do understand that both your quotes are from the media telling you there's an implication, rather than evidence of an actual implied link being made? if anything this case shows how poor a politican he is, he's been bowled an obvious googly and tried to made a big hit off it when he should have left it. it also shows how the media will manipulate a politician to catch them out and make a bigger story, anyone with half a brain would recognise that.

 

[Brovion]

Simple solution...

Cap welfare at 5 kids....

It would certainly stop "career procreationists" but not hinder the rights of those who just want to have large families

Yes, I can see that is a 'simple solution' for someone who supports North Korea. We're more tolerant and compassionate in this country and we have an underlying assumption that no system is perfect and you have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

[pork pie]

Yes, I can see that is a 'simple solution' for someone who supports North Korea. We're more tolerant and compassionate in this country and we have an underlying assumption that no system is perfect and you have to take the rough with the smooth.

And paying for some piece of shit and his 17 kids to live. "Stupid" springs to mind rather than "tolerant". These problems need sorting, no wonder our welfare budget is so high.

 

[Brovion]

And paying for some piece of shit and his 17 kids to live. "Stupid" springs to mind rather than "tolerant". These problems need sorting, no wonder our welfare budget is so high.

As has been pointed out if you're worried about the money rather than the morals the Philpotts of this world are a tiny, tiny minority. Unless you ARE prepared to let children starve it will cost us more in other services to pay out less in benefits.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear....is he getting no PR advice at all!?

 

[Hotchilidog]

And paying for some piece of shit and his 17 kids to live. "Stupid" springs to mind rather than "tolerant". These problems need sorting, no wonder our welfare budget is so high.

But it isn't a problem, the number of families with large amounts of children is minuscule. in 2011 130 families of 10 or more received out of work benefits. Yet these stories get continually used by politicians and the press to create a mistrust of ANYONE who claims benefits.

Some people do play the system, but none play it so well as those at the top of the income scale who continually avoid paying their way, unlike the majority of working people in this country. The likes of Philpott are manna form heaven for those who want to ignore the real problems in this country. The primary one of which is the lack of decent jobs that pay a living wage so that people are not having to claim benefits in the first place.

 

[FREDBINNEY]

As has been pointed out if you're worried about the money rather than the morals the Philpotts of this world are a tiny, tiny minority. Unless you ARE prepared to let children starve it will cost us more in other services to pay out less in benefits.

Benefit claimants with the amount of kids the philpotts have got are a minority , families who live a similar sponging , feckless lifestyle aren't a ' tiny' minority at all .

 

[Simster]

Benefit claimants with the amount of kids the philpotts have got are a minority , families who live a similar sponging , feckless lifestyle aren't a ' tiny' minority at all .

None of us really know whether that is true or not. That's your perception, nothing else. It is true there are entire housing estates relying on benefit which becomes engrained in the culture, but you can only see the true extent of the problem in the good times when there is no shortage of work. For this reason, I can't help feeling that the time to tackle benefit fraud is when the economy is in rude health, and not with pathetic penny pinching when we are in a slump.

 

[drew]

Benefit claimants with the amount of kids the philpotts have got are a minority , families who live a similar sponging , feckless lifestyle aren't a ' tiny' minority at all .

I've come to the conclusion that you and Pork Pie are really just wind up merchants.

 

[Brovion]

Benefit claimants with the amount of kids the philpotts have got are a minority , families who live a similar sponging , feckless lifestyle aren't a ' tiny' minority at all .

How do you know they're not a tiny minority? It's still the same question though - what do you propose to do about them? And I accept that my views are skewed by my political opinions but I feel the wealthy individuals (and corporations) avoiding tax are far more of a burden on us than people working for their mates for a bit of extra cash whilst claiming dole or single mothers getting by on handouts whilst sitting in a council house full of kids.

 

[peterward]

Probably the most cynical and disgusting peice of political opportunism in my lifetime, I think and hope that it will backfire big time, children died for Christ sake and all that idiot can do is make a point that he was on benefits.
Its worse than that labour woman saying its a good day to announce unpopular policy the day that Diana died.

I don't like George Osbourne at all.... repugnant man, but I don't agree with your sentiment, or that their is any real storm over this. Its the BBC reporting Ed Balls outraged comments (suprise suprise), even the Guardians Poly Toinby on C5 news seemed to agree last night that a debate could be had around this man and his actions.... as Osbournes statement seemed to be based on the JUDGES comments when sentencing.

The underlying reason the Judge said this sick idiot did what he did, is that his ex took 5 kids from him which lost him £1000 in benefits, and he wanted the benefits back.

Of course benefits claimaints aren't killers, but Osbourne doesn't say they are, that is what is implied by labour spin doctors in articles trying to whip up a storm.

but certainly some claimants are work shy scroungers playing the system, as was Philpott,...... and I believed out of touch Boy George was actually referring to this and nothing else.

 

[bernster]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2013/04/morality-is-central-to-political-economy.html
i think this article raises some interesting points,Hitchens is not usually my cup of tea but his later points on the morality behind the benefits system is not one that i had given much thought to before

 

[simmo]

They died because he was a thick psycho

Philpott isn't mentally ill and never has been, he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. He was initially charged with murder but the police actually dropped that charge. If his plan had been successful there was to be a fire in his house and he was going to rescue everyone and be the hero, but it all went terribly wrong.

The intent was never to kill his children (and the judge said this in her summation) the intent was something else, so what was his motive and why would he set fire to his house (which seems incredible to the rest of us)? Two reasons the prosecution offered as to why he did this where 1) he was involved in a battle with Lisa Willis over whom looked after their 6 kids and he wanted custody and 2) he wanted a bigger house (from the council) for his family which he had requested on numerous occasions previously.

 

[pork pie]

As has been pointed out if you're worried about the money rather than the morals the Philpotts of this world are a tiny, tiny minority. Unless you ARE prepared to let children starve it will cost us more in other services to pay out less in benefits.

I have issues with both aspects of their lives.

Yes, the money is an affront to the rest of society. Because they have been left within a dysfunctional family environment they will never (well, before this tragic incident) be prepared to take any other role within society than leaches.

It should have been dealt with by someone years ago. They should have been stopped from breeding, and the kids taken away to be raised properly. 17 kids paid for by us? It is just unreal!

 

[BLOCK F]

Usual over reaction and hysteria from NSCs finest!
It really is becoming impossible to have a debate on this board about anything remotely more complicated than should Ankergren be sacked or not!
Is it something in the water or what?Blimey,I thought all the hiatus about Jim Davidson was bad enough,but the moral outrage about Osborne saying what he did is quite ridiculous.Such indignation and foaming at the mouth is daft,but sadly I suppose that is what we have come to expect on this board now.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Philpott's actions of buring down his house were partly motivated by his desire to preserve his state benefits and to have the state provide him with a bigger house. According to the evidence he spends his days watching TV and philandering. There is no evidence to suggest he thought the change in his life circumstances might be improved by actually trying to get a job.

I think that it is fair enough for Osborne to comment if the judge concludes that one of Philpott's motives for burning his house down is to access state benefits. It is an extreme case but one that illustrates how far welfare has come from its original intention of providing a short-term safety net for those in need.

One of the problems for politicians is that they are perceived to be out of touch, yet when they use a real life situation with which everyone is familiar and relate it to their own policies and objectives they are accused of being shallow and opportunistic.

 

[pork pie]

I've come to the conclusion that you and Pork Pie are really just wind up merchants.

So just because two of us do not accept the usuall NCS bleeding hearts part line, we are wind-up merchants? Why is that? Do you not realise that a town with a Green MP is the one out of step with the rest of the country? Like most people I know, I have a growing disgust that, when there are real problems within our country, the bleeding hearts cannot see the need to stop spending our childreans' and grand-childrens' money for them, and live within our means. Obviously, the scroungers wish to keep what Labour gave them, and try to play the system for even more. "New" Labour do not appear to have learned their lessons, or are happy to indulge in the irresponsible politics of the gutter.

I do not agree with what this Government is doing very often, but then need to cut welfare spending is a fact.

There is a great deal of unfairness in it. The main one being the fact that those who pay the most in when they are working, are the very ones who get the least out when they actually need help. Generally as a result of being made redundant because the Labour Government ruined our economy, and this Government is berift of ideas of how to stimulate grown beyond helping their mates in the City of London.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Philpott isn't mentally ill and never has been, he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. He was initially charged with murder but the police actually dropped that charge. If his plan had been successful there was to be a fire in his house and he was going to rescue everyone and be the hero, but it all went terribly wrong.

The intent was never to kill his children (and the judge said this in her summation) the intent was something else, so what was his motive and why would he set fire to his house (which seems incredible to the rest of us)? Two reasons the prosecution offered as to why he did this where 1) he was involved in a battle with Lisa Willis over whom looked after their 6 kids and he wanted custody and 2) he wanted a bigger house (from the council) for his family which he had requested on numerous occasions previously.

The judge also said:

"You so arranged your life and theirs so that everything was done for the pleasure of Michael Philpott."

Hare's Psychopathy Checklist includes:

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings

The judge said

"You lied to the police and you lied to the jury. Ever since the fire your life has been a performance for the public and the police, and then in this court. Your conduct has been punctuated by collapses and shows of distress designed to evoke sympathy where none is merited, designed to manipulate emotion."

Hare's test says

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

QED

 

[spring hall convert]

Of course he does but what a deeply horrible man he is to use the death of 6 kids to make a political point. Yuck.

 

[Danny-Boy]

Leave it with you ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22025035

Should read "George Osborne - doesn't he have a conscience?"