[Politics] George Galloway MP

[London Irish]

I've found him winning £165,000 & paying an undisclosed amount from Google. Hardly 'millions'

he got 2 and half mill from the Telegraph in costs and damages alone, start with Wiki tho that section is not comprehensive

 

[Zeberdi]

Genocide means something different and altogether more serious / hundreds of thousands would been killed by now if not millions as I said.

I don’t know how things could be any less serious in Gaza right now tbh. Policy actions can be judged to have genocidal intent or a de facto genocidal effect. Israel has not been charged with Genocide but the ICJ is certainly monitoring what is going on:

“LONDON — The International Court of Justice has found it is "plausible" that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention. In a provisional order delivered by the court's president, Joan Donoghue, the court said Israel must ensure "with immediate effect" that its forces not commit any of the acts prohibited by the convention.

Donoghue said the court cannot make a final determination right now on whether Israel is guilty of genocide. But she said that given the deteriorating situation in Gaza, the court has jurisdiction to order measures to protect Gaza's population from further risk of genocide.”

FYI - ‘Genocide’ is not limited to the killing of millions of people by definition and ‘genocide’ remains a very specific concern in Gaza - the entire population of Gaza is at risk of famine due to the blockade of aid and supplies. Over 70% of its buildings and infrastructure destroyed and 1.9 million forcibly displaced and living in refugee camps with no protection from bombardments. Half the population is under 18 with 1 in 3 children suffering from trauma and ‘many doctors who have worked in other war zones say that conditions in Gaza are the worst they have seen. “Hospitals, intended to be safe havens…have frequently turned into death traps,” with a further 58,000 civilians expected to die even if a ceasefire was reached immediately says a report released in February by Physicians for Human Rights (phri), an Israeli watchdog.

The United States Holocaust Museum describes ‘Genocide’ as having these components (not fixed numbers on the number of people killed)

“Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.”

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I genuinely can't believe you've seen the images of the brutalised Palestinian civilians. Don't look away

I didn't mention Palestine. I'm fully aware of what is happening there. I'm also fully aware of an oversized ego using that to further their own career.

 

[Wardy's twin]

The extensive damage to civilian infrastructure in Gaza suggests that the line between targeted "humane" bombing and indiscriminate bombing, observed in conflicts like Syria and Chechnya, has eroded significantly. This observation becomes even more pronounced when considering the additional element of settler colonial "slow genocide" and its "eliminationist logic against the native" in the context of Palestine. Here, the concept of slow violence emerges as a potent force capable of achieving outcomes comparable to those of nuclear weapons.

How do you separate civilians from an embedded irregular military force that uses them as cover?

If Hamas is worried about civilian casualties it could surrender now and the fighting would stop.

Regards humane bombing - when did that ever happen ? WW2 , don't think so , Korea, Vietnam nope either. I can't think of many modern conflicts where this has happened except ironically the 1956, 1966 and 1973 wars which Israel fought Arab armies.

The nature of irregular armies/guerrillas/freedom fighters/terrorist is to hide in plain sight using civilians as cover so its not surprising that given the level of integration that the civilian population end up being killed.

 

[5Ways Gull]

R.I.....oh bugger!

 

[kojak]

Okay, I'll bite. The beginning of what?

My money is on you didnt really think before making this post, your bias got the better of you, and you will not have an informed answer. Over to you

Maths not your strong point l take it

 

[Wardy's twin]

I don’t know how things could be any less serious in Gaza right now tbh. Policy actions can be judged to have genocidal intent or a de facto genocidal effect. Israel has not been charged with Genocide but the ICJ is certainly monitoring what is going on:

“LONDON — The International Court of Justice has found it is "plausible" that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention. In a provisional order delivered by the court's president, Joan Donoghue, the court said Israel must ensure "with immediate effect" that its forces not commit any of the acts prohibited by the convention.

Donoghue said the court cannot make a final determination right now on whether Israel is guilty of genocide. But she said that given the deteriorating situation in Gaza, the court has jurisdiction to order measures to protect Gaza's population from further risk of genocide.”

FYI - ‘Genocide’ is not limited to the killing of millions of people by definition and ‘genocide’ remains a very specific concern in Gaza - the entire population of Gaza is at risk of famine due to the blockade of aid and supplies. Over 70% of its buildings and infrastructure destroyed and 1.9 million forcibly displaced and living in refugee camps with no protection from bombardments. Half the population is under 18 with 1 in 3 children suffering from trauma and ‘many doctors who have worked in other war zones say that conditions in Gaza are the worst they have seen. “Hospitals, intended to be safe havens…have frequently turned into death traps,” with a further 58,000 civilians expected to die even if a ceasefire was reached immediately says a report released in February by Physicians for Human Rights (phri), an Israeli watchdog.

The United States Holocaust Museum describes ‘Genocide’ as having these components (not fixed numbers on the number of people killed)

“Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.”

I think the war would stop now if Hamas surrendered, I don't think we would see a pursuance of war just to kill Palestinians. To me that seems to indicate that its not genocide but a war where civilians were always going to be killed because of the integration of Hamas fighters with their families. What we are seeing is two opposing groups fighting over land , one side is Muslim the other side a mixture but predominantly Jewish but also including arabs.

We had a exchange of views before early in the conflict and I said it would be wrong/not work out if Israel attacked Gaza, not because they didn't have the right to attack but because it would cause a massive problem and civilian deaths and Israel would always be seen as the aggressor even though they were attacked.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A point I have made repeatedly to persons on the (far) left who have never been more angry about anything, ever, than traitor Starmer's failure to instantly, completely and utterly, and utterly completely condemn Israel for their wicked genocide that was complelety unjustified and came totally out of the blue, er, after Hamas, er (something, something, something).

As I facetiously posted on here after Labour's bill was passed, 'rejoice, the conflict is now over'.

The stupidity of the electorate, and the pathetic attempts made by politicians to please the electorate, is sometimes quite embarrassing.

Sorry to reply to my own post but I just listened to Sunk spaking for 10 minutes. Perfectly reasonable I though. Perhaps even heartwarming and inspirational. No, I mean it.

Now, whatever is behind it (some think a prelude to giving police more powers - who knows) the first talking head up on the radio accused him of doing too little too late. "Why did he not say all that before?". Condemned, like Starmer for his 'last minute' condemnation of the actions of Israel (which thankfully ended the conflict immediately as predicted).

This really gets my goat. If we demand gesture politics we will create a circus of clowns performing for claps.

I mean, why not put it in the manifesto? :

"We condemn all acts of violence especially those that have not yet taken place" (a sort of Mystic Corbyn stance). Home and hosed.

And meanwhile, whatabout:

"Will will make it illegal to have any sort of political protest to ensure that there will be no twats rocking up with stars of David intermeshed with swastikas, and the like"

Actually, I suspect this is what Sunk is planning. Political opportunism? Why not? He sounded very much in charge to me. And I qualify my comments by noting I am a labour party member.

 

[borat]

How do you separate civilians from an embedded irregular military force that uses them as cover?

If Hamas is worried about civilian casualties it could surrender now and the fighting would stop.

Regards humane bombing - when did that ever happen ? WW2 , don't think so , Korea, Vietnam nope either. I can't think of many modern conflicts where this has happened except ironically the 1956, 1966 and 1973 wars which Israel fought Arab armies.

The nature of irregular armies/guerrillas/freedom fighters/terrorist is to hide in plain sight using civilians as cover so its not surprising that given the integration the civilian population end up being killed.

The bombing has been indiscriminate. Look at the number of hospitals that have been hit.

Then there's the starvation being enacted

Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says

Exclusive: UN special rapporteur on the right to food Michael Fakhri says denial of food is war crime and constitutes ‘a situation of genocide’

www.google.com

And rape and executions

Following shocking testimonies of Israeli killings and field executions of Palestinians in Gaza, the Red Cross must step up to fulfil its obligations

Following shocking testimonies of Israeli killings and field executions of Palestinians in Gaza, the Red Cross must step up to fulfill its obligations

euromedmonitor.org

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/middleeast/israel-hamas-un-investigation-sexual-abuse-intl/index.html

Let's not forget the 70 years of control and Apartheid the Palestinians have been subjected to.

Amazes me that there are those that are so keen to leap to the IDF/Israel's defence.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's naive to believe that it's only those that agree with the ideology that are currently cutting services in local government. Every council is having to do it because the funding crisis is so severe that publishing a balanced budget is more challenging than it has ever been: https://www.theguardian.com/society...s-expect-to-go-bust-in-next-year-survey-finds.

One consequence of a Section 114 notice is that central government can intervene in how services are run.
That's this government!
Councils of all political hues will do everything they can to possibly avoid that, but for a left wing administration it would be it's worst nightmare.

More than naïve. Pathetic! Left wing attacks on labour, as per usual. Thatcher stopped councils spending what they like and sending the bill to HMG.

We have a poor givernment that has done great harm in the last 14 years. And yet elements on the left seem more concerned about the possibility of (the traitor) Starmer becoming PM.

f***ing weird, as well as pathetic.

 

[Wardy's twin]

The extensive damage to civilian infrastructure in Gaza suggests that the line between targeted "humane" bombing and indiscriminate bombing, observed in conflicts like Syria and Chechnya, has eroded significantly. This observation becomes even more pronounced when considering the additional element of settler colonial "slow genocide" and its "eliminationist logic against the native" in the context of Palestine. Here, the concept of slow violence emerges as a potent force capable of achieving outcomes comparable to those of nuclear weapons.

Where were all the marches against Syria and Russia , why was there not widespread condemnation of Russia and the Syrian leadership whilst they murdered hundreds of thousands and displaced millions? Why doesn't Egypt take in Palestinians in the same way Turkey took in Syrians? Its all down to politics and scoring one against Israel as they are seen as America's stooge or I guess it could of course be plain old antisemitism.

Don't get me wrong, Israel has gone OTT in my eyes because the outcome was very predictable when fighting a war in a densely populated area but if I were Jewish I might thing very differently.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Maths not your strong point l take it

Er, I have a degree in the subject….what did I miss?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

One side of extremists want the Palestinian kids to be murdered and the other side of "extremists" beheaded Jewish babies, gosh yes they are exactly the same

Honestly coming out with this during a time when the Tories (Right) and Labour (Centre) are clearly different because right and centre are not the same as each other is quite something

Corrected for you

 

[kojak]

Er, I have a degree in the subject….what did I miss?

Demographics change,the electorate changes

I don't suppose a high-flying bloke like yourself living in Berlin gives two shits about the people of Rochdale

 

[London Irish]

Corrected for you

The beheaded babies claims were debunked months ago. You just don't follow the news do you?

If you are someone who uncritically swallows Israeli army propaganda, I think you are an extremist

In this case it wasn't even the IDF that made these claims but some nutty Israeli group

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Demographics change,the electorate changes

I don't suppose a high-flying bloke like yourself living in Berlin gives two shits about the people of Rochdale

Do I have to answer honestly? can I do a dare instead?

 

[portlock seagull]

UN def: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

Israel has cast mass starvation and famine across Gaza whilst destoying all infrastructure and healthcare. 30,000 (found bodies) have been murdered from the sky, genocide has nothing to do with numbers... It does not mean they all have to die.

But Israel are playing the long game, as people continue to starve (Gaza is already at IPC level 5; the worst measurement of famine) the numbers will rise. And this will unfortunately happen. Israel is committing, has committed and will continue genocide against the civilians of Gaza. You are wrong.

I’m not. Really I’m not. Again, you’re even mis using even that cut and paste definition because you obviously haven’t read it. Genocide, if it were happening, would be Israeli’s killing every man women child and baby that’s in Gaza. That’s genocide. And as said, that’s clearly not happening and the numbers of dead would be off the scale.

You’re confused. And angry. I get it. But Gaza maybe many things but it’s not Genocide. Nor apartheid. If you knew anything about historical occurrences of either, you’d know this. Back to school, don’t they teach you young ‘une anything these days except how to get angry?

 

[Wardy's twin]

The bombing has been indiscriminate. Look at the number of hospitals that have been hit.

Then there's the starvation being enacted

Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says

Exclusive: UN special rapporteur on the right to food Michael Fakhri says denial of food is war crime and constitutes ‘a situation of genocide’

www.google.com

And rape and executions

Following shocking testimonies of Israeli killings and field executions of Palestinians in Gaza, the Red Cross must step up to fulfil its obligations

Following shocking testimonies of Israeli killings and field executions of Palestinians in Gaza, the Red Cross must step up to fulfill its obligations

euromedmonitor.org

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/middleeast/israel-hamas-un-investigation-sexual-abuse-intl/index.html

Let's not forget the 70 years of control and Apartheid the Palestinians have been subjected to.

Amazes me that there are those that are so keen to leap to the IDF/Israel's defence.

Let me state that I had a good debate with @Zeberdi about why Israel should not go into Gaza (even though they had justification) because the mayhem that followed would all be blamed on Israel.

But let me restate my question, how do you separate civilians who are tightly integrated with Hamas fighters, the answer is you can't so you either take risks with your own soldiers or you take risks with enemy civilians who may well be active supporters of the fighters. its pretty clear what any government would do in this situation.

It would not surprise me that there has been rape or executions there is a war going on and in the IDF there are going to be a number of people (men & women) who will take advantage , there will also be some who will know people killed on 7th and will have there own perspective on justice. I don't think its right but its not peculiar to this conflict.

70 years of self imposed separation is possibly nearer the mark. Those Arabs that accepted the status quo in 1948 are integrated into the Israeli state.

I am not leaping to the IDFs defence but what I do object to is a biased narrative using emotive words like genocide and apartheid when its a clear statement from both Hamas and Iran that they want to wipe out Israel and the Jews, now that would be genocide IMO.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Er, I have a degree in the subject….what did I miss?

1 + 1 = 3 ?

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Man tells interviewer what they want to hear to secure £80,000 job with expenses shocker