General Election 2017

[spring hall convert]

The point you seem to be missing is that more people wanted to leave than stay, so it's the will of the people, yet you seem to object to this as it doesn't match your view. To me it's democracy. It seems that you think democracy is great as long as it's your democracy [emoji38]

You are missing the point. I'm not railing against the referendum result, I am questioning the checks and balances of a party that has seen two leaders evaporate through flawed personal decision making in less than a year. Process wise, something is wrong and it needs a serious review.

You can't just cycle through leaders and let them have a punt til you get the right one.

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[larus]

Im not calling you out here specifically, so don't take this personally but I've seen this line a lot since the ref. I voted remain but I've come to accept it now, all I want is a good, clean break that will work the best for the country. But, I have to point out that all this remoaner nonsense and calling remain voters who are unhappy whingers is a bit flat when the leave side had a political party that existed for that very reason, to moan and piss about the EU since 1991! When the remainers create a party that campaigns almost solely on the policy of staying in the EU, then I think they've still got a lot of whinging in the tank before they're up there with UKIP.

(you could argue the Lib-Dems took that role, but that wasn't really their main focus and will certainly be dropped now I'd have thought)

With respect, the complete establishment were Remainers.
The Tory leadership (most of them).
The Labour leadership (most of them).
The Lib-Dems (all of them).
BoE.
CBI.
IMF.
Obama.

And, the only political parts was a party which was viewed by a substantial part of the population as nutters/racists.

So, I do fail to see how the reality of what happened fits your view.

 

[larus]

You are missing the point. I'm not railing against the referendum result, I am questioning the checks and balances of a party that has seen two leaders evaporate through flawed personal decision making in less than a year. Process wise, something is wrong and it needs a serious review.

You can't just cycle through leaders and let them have a punt til you get the right one.

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Yes, but Cameron was leader for quite some time and was generally considered a reasonable operator (not my type of leader I'm afraid - too much like Bliar. Image and spin). I agree about TM.

You could argue the same about the Labour Party. Corbyn was only 'put' onto the leadership selection list as a gesture to the left of the party, then look at the turmoil he caused in the ranks. Yes, he managed to persuade (or bribe) the youth vote out, but also he lost a number of traditional labour voters too. You may also want to question how he Labour Party could have selected Ed M as leader too.

Neither party is perfect, but if a leader f*cks up (as per TM), then they have to go. I'm 95% sure she will have to leave later this year (and I hope she does too).

 

[spring hall convert]

Yes, but Cameron was leader for quite some time and was generally considered a reasonable operator (not my type of leader I'm afraid - too much like Bliar. Image and spin). I agree about TM.

You could argue the same about the Labour Party. Corbyn was only 'put' onto the leadership selection list as a gesture to the left of the party, then look at the turmoil he caused in the ranks. Yes, he managed to persuade (or bribe) the youth vote out, but also he lost a number of traditional labour voters too. You may also want to question how he Labour Party could have selected Ed M as leader too.

Neither party is perfect, but if a leader f*cks up (as per TM), then they have to go. I'm 95% sure she will have to leave later this year (and I hope she does too).

The difference is the turmoil in the Labour Party has been borne of a desire to make sure they had the right man.

The Tories couldn't wait to annoint May so much so that they completely forgot to actually see if she was at all cut out for the job. What a total **** up.

 

[spring hall convert]

The point I'm making is the party is as much to blame if not more than May. Getting rid of her doesn't remove the stain.

If you make your living on good decision making and stability, you can see why this sort of thing matters.

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[East Preston Gull]

Yes, but Cameron was leader for quite some time and was generally considered a reasonable operator (not my type of leader I'm afraid - too much like Bliar. Image and spin). I agree about TM.

You could argue the same about the Labour Party. Corbyn was only 'put' onto the leadership selection list as a gesture to the left of the party, then look at the turmoil he caused in the ranks. Yes, he managed to persuade (or bribe) the youth vote out, but also he lost a number of traditional labour voters too. You may also want to question how he Labour Party could have selected Ed M as leader too.

Neither party is perfect, but if a leader f*cks up (as per TM), then they have to go. I'm 95% sure she will have to leave later this year (and I hope she does too).

I don't think she will be here in 2 wks time. If she had appointed a chief negotiatior already the EU talks would not be the stumbling block to being allowed to hang on.

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[Iggle Piggle]

You are missing the point. I'm not railing against the referendum result, I am questioning the checks and balances of a party that has seen two leaders evaporate through flawed personal decision making in less than a year. Process wise, something is wrong and it needs a serious review.

You can't just cycle through leaders and let them have a punt til you get the right one.

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In hindsight that is right but both remain and Tory majority were long odds on. I'd argue that the decision making wasn't at fault, both should have won even if they look like muggy odds on shots today.

The commonality between both of these was the woeful campaigns. Remain never talked about the advantages of staying in, this election was a load of rhetoric waffle from the Tories. Trump is no one's cup of tea but the Tories have learnt nothing or even understood how he won in the US (including employing Russians thankfully). He knew how to mobilise his core vote via all avenues. This lot went all out to alienate them.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The point I'm making is the party is as much to blame if not more than May. Getting rid of her doesn't remove the stain.

If you make your living on good decision making and stability, you can see why this sort of thing matters.

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I thought the whole point of anointing May was for stability. The country was in shock, Cameron had just jumped ship, would a long possibly bitter leadership battle going on for months added to stability then?

 

[lawros left foot]

The point you seem to be missing is that more people wanted to leave than stay, so it's the will of the people, yet you seem to object to this as it doesn't match your view. To me it's democracy. It seems that you think democracy is great as long as it's your democracy

An important part of democracy is freedom of speech, so, I'll keep moaning about what I consider to be the worst decision this country has made post war, it may piss a few people off, I may be slagged ioff, I don't really care, I didn't want us to leave the EU, you did, your lot won, by a pretty slim majority, but, it doesn't mean I can't laugh at the ballsup May and her mates is going to make of it

 

[JC Footy Genius]

In hindsight that is right but both remain and Tory majority were long odds on. I'd argue that the decision making wasn't at fault, both should have won even if they look like muggy odds on shots today.

The commonality between both of these was the woeful campaigns. Remain never talked about the advantages of staying in, this election was a load of rhetoric waffle from the Tories. Trump is no one's cup of tea but the Tories have learnt nothing or even understood how he won in the US (including employing Russians thankfully). He knew how to mobilise his core vote via all avenues. This lot went all out to alienate them.

This with bells on .. hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[spring hall convert]

I thought the whole point of anointing May was for stability. The country was in shock, Cameron had just jumped ship, would a long possibly bitter leadership battle going on for months added to stability then?

It was overplayed. They could have had a proper contest, it was just the Conservative Party and establishment was in a real hurry. And they then pilloried the Labour Party for their choice of leader, despite having the worst leader of a major party that I've seen in my lifetime themselves.

 

[btnbelle]

Time for Teresa May to go. I don't believe you can blame your advisors. They advise you but it was her decision to take. She called the election, she was arrogant enough to think we voters would be turkey's voting for Christmas. I was voting Tory (this time only due to Brexit) but changed my mind after finding out my children were at risk, of losing out of inheriting my house. I no longer trust her at all. She is the same as Cameron all words and no action or policies to back them up. There is nothing she can say or do now to regain my trust.

The DUP are not the answer. Just resign you bloody difficult woman!

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Cameron and Osborne had a side. They took a risk and by their own terms they lost.

It was a cynical move to stop defections to UKIP - they never thought it would happen.

The alternative was either a SNP/Labour coalition or a UKIP/ Conservative one.

So the Prime Minister and Chancellor for reasons of political ecpediency took a punt and lost.

I'm not really whinging about the result of the referendum, I'm actually really worried about the checks and balances of a party that allows such individual risk taking by leaders seemingly without any peer review.

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For what its worth opinion polls prior to the 2015 election had both Labour and the Tories neck and neck for months and therefore did CMD offer the referendum believing that a Tory/Liberal coalition was likely to happen after the election in the knowledge that the Libdems would not allow it to happen ? For CMD than plan went out the window when he realised that the Tories had a majority.

 

[spring hall convert]

In hindsight that is right but both remain and Tory majority were long odds on. I'd argue that the decision making wasn't at fault, both should have won even if they look like muggy odds on shots today.

The commonality between both of these was the woeful campaigns. Remain never talked about the advantages of staying in, this election was a load of rhetoric waffle from the Tories. Trump is no one's cup of tea but the Tories have learnt nothing or even understood how he won in the US (including employing Russians thankfully). He knew how to mobilise his core vote via all avenues. This lot went all out to alienate them.

Just because you ran shit campaigns and dispensed with the teams responsible for them doesn't absolve you of the blame for the outcome. The Tories are 100% responsible for where we are and the electorate will know that at the next election. This wasn't bad luck, it was a catalogue of clangers.

You can't get away with being a safe pair of hands any more.

 

[spring hall convert]

For what its worth opinion polls prior to the 2015 election had both Labour and the Tories neck and neck for months and therefore did CMD offer the referendum believing that a Tory/Liberal coalition was likely to happen after the election in the knowledge that the Libdems would not allow it to happen ? For CMD than plan went out the window when he realised that the Tories had a majority.

Another thing the Tories have got wrong. Not very good at forecasts are they....

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It was overplayed. They could have had a proper contest, it was just the Conservative Party and establishment was in a real hurry. And they then pilloried the Labour Party for their choice of leader, despite having the worst leader of a major party that I've seen in my lifetime.

Was it? I remember the market volatility, shock, anger, incredulity, recriminations, disbelief. Someone needed to steady the ship. Also, they could have had a proper contest but there's no guarantee it would have found out T May. Plenty of sub-par candidates go through leadership elections and end up winning. In some ways she was the perfect choice a lukewarm remainer committed to following through on the referendum vote.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Just because you ran shit campaigns and dispensed with the teams responsible for them doesn't absolve you of the blame for the outcome. The Tories are 100% responsible for where we are and the electorate will know that at the next election. This wasn't bad luck, it was a catalogue of clangers.

You can't get away with being a safe pair of hands any more.

Point of order. I've never voted Tory and probably never will. Up to this election I'd only ever voted Labour but don't get me started on Jezza. For the record I voted lib dem albeit I live in a constituency where the local Tory MP has a 17k majority.

I'm simply arguing that even half decent campaigns in both of those votes would have got the results over the line. Calling the referendum or the election were understandable if we go back in time. The shithouse campaigns did for both of them.

 

[spring hall convert]

Was it? I remember the market volatility, shock, anger, incredulity, recriminations, disbelief. Someone needed to steady the ship. Also, they could have had a proper contest but there's no guarantee it would have found out T May. Plenty of sub-par candidates go through leadership elections and end up winning. In some ways she was the perfect choice a lukewarm remainer committed to following through on the referendum vote.

If she'd had to debate wit anyone of above average intelligence live she would have been found out.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If she'd had to debate wit anyone of above average intelligence live she would have been found out.

And the other candidates were?

 

[spring hall convert]

And the other candidates were?

You make an extremely valid point.