General Election 2017

[midnight_rendezvous]

The "problem" here is actually quite simple- even though a lot of people are in denial. The "problem" the left in general have is that fewer people want their policies, leadership(that's a laugh) and general chumminess with the Unions. The "natural" party of Government in the UK is, and has been for the last 100 years or so, general right of centre, with Left leaning parties coming in as a protest vote, only to be outed next time round. The obvious exception to that being the Blair years, but then arguably his party was fairly right leaning when in power.
Now that doesn't sit well with the far left, who like to blame all the worlds ills on the right, but Britain (whatever anyone says) is a RELATIVLEY well off country) There are obvious exceptions, and some horrible examples of where it goes wrong, but the majority of people , like it or not, are far better off than their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were. There are some undeniable areas that things need to change, but the left in general are interested in the politics of envy, and that does not sit right with a lot of the electorate.

My generation are certainly not better off than our parents generation.

The whole politics of envy thing is BS and just a lazy way of discrediting the left. It's not 'envy' to be against privitastion of the NHS, food banks, a huge rise in child poverty, rip off landlords, welfare cuts, cuts to cooperation tax meaning cooperations pay less tax than their employees, spectacularly missed economic targets, the longest fall in value of wages since records began, the austerity con, the most unaffordable homes ever, the biggest education funding cuts in decades and the defunding of local government. But you know, you're either 'bitter' or a 'champagne socialist' if you're against such things.

 

[Gwylan]

The "problem" here is actually quite simple- even though a lot of people are in denial. The "problem" the left in general have is that fewer people want their policies, leadership(that's a laugh) and general chumminess with the Unions. The "natural" party of Government in the UK is, and has been for the last 100 years or so, general right of centre, with Left leaning parties coming in as a protest vote, only to be outed next time round. The obvious exception to that being the Blair years, but then arguably his party was fairly right leaning when in power.

That's very simplistic. For a start, Attlee and Wilson both won two elections (as did MacDonald, although the second was a coalition). However, while you point out Blair was rightwards leaning, you gloss over the fact that most governments before Thatcher were very centrist, indeed, PMs like Baldwin, Macmillan and Heath would probably be regarded as left of centre these days ... or, at the very least, Lib Dems.

 

[ManOfSussex]

The "problem" here is actually quite simple- even though a lot of people are in denial. The "problem" the left in general have is that fewer people want their policies, leadership(that's a laugh) and general chumminess with the Unions. The "natural" party of Government in the UK is, and has been for the last 100 years or so, general right of centre, with Left leaning parties coming in as a protest vote, only to be outed next time round. The obvious exception to that being the Blair years, but then arguably his party was fairly right leaning when in power.
Now that doesn't sit well with the far left, who like to blame all the worlds ills on the right, but Britain (whatever anyone says) is a RELATIVLEY well off country) There are obvious exceptions, and some horrible examples of where it goes wrong, but the majority of people , like it or not, are far better off than their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were. There are some undeniable areas that things need to change, but the left in general are interested in the politics of envy, and that does not sit right with a lot of the electorate.

How old are you out of interest? I'm not yet 40. I don't own property now, buts that's more to do with me selling before moving abroad some years ago. Most of my friends do own property, some rent though - either way none of them are better of than their parents are. Most of my friends voted 'leave' last year and will vote Tory next month too. All bemoan public services and The NHS though. I'm still bemused as to how people think Brexit and The Conservatives are going to do anything for The NHS over the next 5 years.

My brother is older than with me a family and a good job, the same job our Dad did incidentally, he's nowhere near being as comfortably off as my Dad was and is - My brother will never be able to retire at 60 anymore than I will, like our Dad did.

You're right we're a relatively well off country, I lived in Africa when I was abroad, I appreciate I'm not living in the same time as my Grandparents were growing up in 100 years ago, but things have gone backwards here for the last 10 years and I don't see much improving in the next 10.

I guess if you're alright Jack, then fine

 

[Weststander]

That's very simplistic. For a start, Attlee and Wilson both won two elections (as did MacDonald, although the second was a coalition). However, while you point out Blair was rightwards leaning, you gloss over the fact that most governments before Thatcher were very centrist, indeed, PMs like Baldwin, Macmillan and Heath would probably be regarded as left of centre these days ... or, at the very least, Lib Dems.

Wilson won four general elections - 1964, 1966 and 1974 (twice).

 

[Hastings gull]

I'm quite lucky, I don't live in Hastings.

Posting the totally exaggerated drivel that you did would not strike me as something from a person who is lucky - just plain . .well . .rather slow. By all means voice your fears, which is what a forum is all about, but do you really think that the outcome you portrayed is in any way accurate.

 

[Hastings gull]

How old are you out of interest? I'm not yet 40. I don't own property now, buts that's more to do with me selling before moving abroad some years ago. Most of my friends do own property, some rent though - either way none of them are better of than their parents are. Most of my friends voted 'leave' last year and will vote Tory next month too. All bemoan public services and The NHS though. I'm still bemused as to how people think Brexit and The Conservatives are going to do anything for The NHS over the next 5 years.

My brother is older than with me a family and a good job, the same job our Dad did incidentally, he's nowhere near being as comfortably off as my Dad was and is - My brother will never be able to retire at 60 anymore than I will, like our Dad did.

You're right we're a relatively well off country, I lived in Africa when I was abroad, I appreciate I'm not living in the same time as my Grandparents were growing up in 100 years ago, but things have gone backwards here for the last 10 years and I don't see much improving in the next 10.

I guess if you're alright Jack, then fine

I am not sure why you think it should be any different -my daughter is not as well off as I am, but then she has been working 25 years less than I and my wife. What else would you expect? And why are lumping Brexit with public services?

 

[Weststander]

Indeed it looks like a coronation, our worst ever PM will beat the 2nd worst ever Leader of the Opposition.

If you can afford it, get private health care, if not keep a pack of 48 Paracetamol handy to avoid a lingering death. If you work in the public sector as anything other than in management, get out now. If you have a social conscience, accept that you are part of a minority that can no longer make a difference. If you are rich and comfortable, be very grateful....but, don't slip from your greasy pole as there will be no one to catch you.

May's only been PM for months. Bet you also said that about Maggie, Major and Cameron at the time. Allowing your miserable class war hatred to override historical facts - look in the premierships of Callaghan and Brown. In particular, the state of the UK when they got the top job, in contrast to that when they departed no.10. It makes depressing reading.

 

[Gwylan]

Wilson won four general elections - 1964, 1966 and 1974 (twice).

He did but I was referring to the previous post which said that every Labour PM had lost the next election. Wilson didn't really win the first one in 1974, he was the leader of the largest party but didn't have a majority, so the next election was called very quickly.

But, yes, Wilson won four elections (or three and a bit) with a manifesto that would be left of Corbyn's. And yet, he now hear that Corbyn's too left wing to get elected.

We live in strange times.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The "problem" here is actually quite simple- even though a lot of people are in denial. The "problem" the left in general have is that fewer people want their policies, leadership(that's a laugh) and general chumminess with the Unions. The "natural" party of Government in the UK is, and has been for the last 100 years or so, general right of centre, with Left leaning parties coming in as a protest vote, only to be outed next time round. The obvious exception to that being the Blair years, but then arguably his party was fairly right leaning when in power.
Now that doesn't sit well with the far left, who like to blame all the worlds ills on the right, but Britain (whatever anyone says) is a RELATIVLEY well off country) There are obvious exceptions, and some horrible examples of where it goes wrong, but the majority of people , like it or not, are far better off than their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were. There are some undeniable areas that things need to change, but the left in general are interested in the politics of envy, and that does not sit right with a lot of the electorate.

It certainly isn't that simple but there's a grain of truth in what you say.

As a youth I was more left wing but I've moved to the right slowly but surely over time. I now identify as centerist economically but very socially liberal; pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro sensible immigration, atheist and I'd legalise most drugs. There isn't really a party that suits me any more. I bang on about my social values and people assume I'm a Corbyn voter, I bang on about economics and they assume I'm Tory or Lib Dem. Actually, this year, I am going to spoil my ballot.

I assume there are a lot like me who share elements of what socialism stands for but cannot go the full Morning Star. Who watched communism collapse in Eastern Europe in 1989 and saw the joy on the faces of the liberated and understood that the far left has to pen people in for their policies to be accepted. I can never vote Tory but I can equally never vote for Corbyn. He claims to speak for the majority but the majority do not like him.

May wins by default - and because big business control the media and anyone who finds the above hurting their head simply buys The Sun and does what they say. On the very odd occasion The Sun finds themselves on the wrong side of popularism they just switch sides - explaining Blair and their support for him.

 

[Weststander]

I am not sure why you think it should be any different -my daughter is not as well off as I am, but then she has been working 25 years less than I and my wife. What else would you expect? And why are lumping Brexit with public services?

And let's not forget than millions of socialists and normally Labour voting electors voted for Brexit too.

 

[Weststander]

It certainly isn't that simple but there's a grain of truth in what you say.

As a youth I was more left wing but I've moved to the right slowly but surely over time. I now identify as centerist economically but very socially liberal; pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro sensible immigration, atheist and I'd legalise most drugs. There isn't really a party that suits me any more. I bang on about my social values and people assume I'm a Corbyn voter, I bang on about economics and they assume I'm Tory or Lib Dem. Actually, this year, I am going to spoil my ballot.

I assume there are a lot like me who share elements of what socialism stands for but cannot go the full Morning Star. Who watched communism collapse in Eastern Europe in 1989 and saw the joy on the faces of the liberated and understood that the far left has to pen people in for their policies to be accepted. I can never vote Tory but I can equally never vote for Corbyn. He claims to speak for the majority but the majority do not like him.

May wins by default - and because big business control the media and anyone who finds the above hurting their head simply buys The Sun and does what they say. On the very odd occasion The Sun finds themselves on the wrong side of popularism they just switch sides - explaining Blair and their support for him.

May wins because vast swathes of the UK want a government to see a Brexit through, but also because 75% of the English electorate one way or another have no appetite or trust of hard left economics. It sounds fair on paper, but the public don't warm to old socialist mantra of a finite cake that needs to be redivided in a fairer way by heavy taxation of the better off and businesses.

 

[Guinness Boy]

May wins because vast swathes of the UK want a government to see a Brexit through, but also because 75% of the English electorate one way or another have no appetite or trust of hard left economics. It sounds fair on paper, but the public don't warm to old socialist mantra of a finite cake that needs to be redivided in a fairer way by heavy taxation of the better off and businesses.

The second part I agree with. The highlighted part I take issue with. May has veered between hopeless and inactive so far on Brexit and is a dyed in the wool remainer no matter what she says.

 

[Hastings gull]

It certainly isn't that simple but there's a grain of truth in what you say.

As a youth I was more left wing but I've moved to the right slowly but surely over time. I now identify as centerist economically but very socially liberal; pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro sensible immigration, atheist and I'd legalise most drugs. There isn't really a party that suits me any more. I bang on about my social values and people assume I'm a Corbyn voter, I bang on about economics and they assume I'm Tory or Lib Dem. Actually, this year, I am going to spoil my ballot.

I assume there are a lot like me who share elements of what socialism stands for but cannot go the full Morning Star. Who watched communism collapse in Eastern Europe in 1989 and saw the joy on the faces of the liberated and understood that the far left has to pen people in for their policies to be accepted. I can never vote Tory but I can equally never vote for Corbyn. He claims to speak for the majority but the majority do not like him.

May wins by default - and because big business control the media and anyone who finds the above hurting their head simply buys The Sun and does what they say. On the very odd occasion The Sun finds themselves on the wrong side of popularism they just switch sides - explaining Blair and their support for him.

Thanks for this -a really good post. I imagine that many people have similar stories to tell, namely that as we get older, we tend to move to the right, as we realise that we cannot change the world, and that some of our cherished values during our youthful time, simply don't work given human nature.I was in Germany in 1989, and, believe me, watching those poor sods from the East pushing each other to buy bananas and fruit juice is something I will never forget. During the summer of 1990, we were camping in Italy and opposite us was a family from the old East Germany - to get to Italy (nowhere near as expensive as it would be for us) drained them of their finances to such an extent, that, other than breakfast, they ate potato only for every meal.

Brexit will be a huge issue, and, if I may say so, spoiling your ballot paper will not be a good idea. You will have to decide as to who you want to face those pesky Europeans; May and Davis or Corbyn and Abbott.

 

[Weststander]

The second part I agree with. The highlighted part I take issue with. May has veered between hopeless and inactive so far on Brexit and is a dyed in the wool remainer no matter what she says.

She's not denied that last part. She's seeing through the referendum leave vote. To do otherwise would cause a (metaphorical) civil war against the establishment.

 

[Gwylan]

Brexit will be a huge issue, and, if I may say so, spoiling your ballot paper will not be a good idea. You will have to decide as to who you want to face those pesky Europeans; May and Davis or Corbyn and Abbott.

That's not the case though - you making a straw man argument there.

The PM will have very little to do with the negotiations, he/she has a country to run. And the shadow minister for Brexit is Keir Starmer. And, while I'm not a Labour voter, I'd rather Starmer was leading the negotiations TBH

 

[vegster]

May's only been PM for months. Bet you also said that about Maggie, Major and Cameron at the time. Allowing your miserable class war hatred to override historical facts - look in the premierships of Callaghan and Brown. In particular, the state of the UK when they got the top job, in contrast to that when they departed no.10. It makes depressing reading.

Hilarious! " Miserable Class War Hatred ".... I would hope that everyone had a chance, isn't that a lovely aspiration?

 

[Hastings gull]

She's not denied that last part. She's seeing through the referendum leave vote. To do otherwise would cause a (metaphorical) civil war against the establishment.

Absolutely. She made it clear that she voted remain, which is her right, and is now willing to implement our withdrawal from the EU, as the British people voted that way. This is surely to her credit. Compare that with the Lib Dems, who want to find any way to reverse the mandate the government has been given. and they put a leaflet through my door on Wednesday, flagging up their belief in in a united Britain. . . .

 

[Hastings gull]

That's not the case though - you making a straw man argument there.

The PM will have very little to do with the negotiations, he/she has a country to run. And the shadow minister for Brexit is Keir Starmer. And, while I'm not a Labour voter, I'd rather Starmer was leading the negotiations TBH

Yes, of course, I was being somewhat flippant and the chap you mention has rather more about him, though it would be difficult not to, thinking of Da and JC.

 

[Soulman]

Absolutely. She made it clear that she voted remain, which is her right, and is now willing to implement our withdrawal from the EU, as the British people voted that way. This is surely to her credit. Compare that with the Lib Dems, who want to find any way to reverse the mandate the government has been given. and they put a leaflet through my door on Wednesday, flagging up their belief in in a united Britain. . . .

I think we can see from todays local election results who the public have more faith in. Normally the party in power get a bit of a kicking at the local elections.
Can anyone have any faith in Corbyn and his back up team.....and Farron is a joke, not sure who his back up team is.....is Ming still around, bring back Paddy.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I am not sure why you think it should be any different -my daughter is not as well off as I am, but then she has been working 25 years less than I and my wife. What else would you expect? And why are lumping Brexit with public services?

Me, my brother, my friends - we are not better off at our age than our parents were at this age. My parents were providing for their parents when they were in their 30's and 40's, the notion of me or my brother helping my Dad out is just laughable - we couldn't afford to and he doesn't need it - he lives a very comfortable retirement, as do most of his friends and the parents of my friends. None of us will be retiring early like them. My parents comfortably afforded to buy a detached house in their 20's and holiday every year. All 20 somethings do that now, don't they.

As for lumping Brexit and public services? So 5,000+ and rising EU NHS nurses haven't left since the vote then and NHS trusts aren't now struggling to recruit staff from Europe and elsewhere now then? Dwindling tax receipts to the exchequer post Brexit as GDP shrinks? Oh sorry, I forgot, it''ll be fine because we've got a free trade deal with New Zealand and our country back etc.