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General Election 2015
- Thread starter Herr Tubthumper
- Start date
Hampster Gull
Well-known member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,465
There is something grossly wrong with FPTP. Pretty undefensible really now that politics is fragmenting.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,273
I'm not a tribal supporter like you Enrest. I have always supported the idea of PR and was disappointed both establishment parties only offered AV which I voted in favour of. FPTP is what we have as it suited the 2 big parties but its always been anti democratic. If you support labour and you live in a Tory safe seat your vote doesn't count and vice versa. PR is the only real democratic system, though for obvious reasons it won't happen as the 2 big boys want to protect their carte blanche
But with any form of PR system, coalition governments will be inevitable so a party with 1% of the vote could, in theory, be a kingmaker in government. It's certainly what happens in Israel where some hard-core religious nutters with tiny support have undue influence
No, PR won't happen because we had a vote to change the system just four years and it was rejected by two to one voters. We're not going to have another referendum when the vote against was so high
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,273
I dont think coalition governments should be feared, if they act in their own ways in what they believe is the genuine best interests of the country and some negotiating and checks and balances is no bad thing. I think the Lib Dems have tempered the tories somewhat well and i'd much rather the Lib Dems tempering Labours urges to borrow than hard left Labour on its own. The nationalists is a different kettle of fish, they are not a UK party and they wont act in the best interests of the UK, they will act in what they think is in the best interests of Scotland regardless of wether its good for the UK.
I agree the system wont be changed as it wont favour the 2 big parties, but PR is still the fairest system in genuinely representing the nationwide voting percentages in westminster. Polls say the greens will have 5% of the nation vote for them. thats 1% more people voting Green than the 4% for the SNP and yet the seats will be divided 1 Green v's 40-50 SNP. Under PR the Greens would get about 17 seats and the SNP 15, that would genuinely reflect the numbers who voted for them in Parliament.
The last vote was for for AV (the least threatening alternative to FPTP for the 2 big guns) But nothing will happen as you say because the Cons and the Labs wont allow it to diminish their power and neither actually want true reflective democracy.
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- Thread starter
- #4,526
On this latter point if we have a couple more coalitions I believe a vote on PR will happen. And it will be a PR vote, not that AV thing which few people understood.
But you can't have a political system that says some parties can be in government and some can't, no matter how many votes it receives - that's not democracy, that's dictatorship.
pastafarian
Well-known member
has anyone considered a musical interlude on this thread?
interesting s it is i cant help but feel everyone needs to take a chill pill for a couple of days.
interesting s it is i cant help but feel everyone needs to take a chill pill for a couple of days.
- Thread starter
- #4,529
I disagree. I think it's generally good natured albeit a little "over enthusiastic" at times.
pastafarian
Well-known member
Fair enough but
456 pages
anything new since page 8? apart from the massive surge in Tory support from last nights poll
are you sure some kraftwerk wouldnt be welcome for a breather?
Green Cross Code Man
Wunt be druv
Isn't that what is occurring under fptp with UKIP and the Greens being vastly underrepresented and therefore the voters for their parties disenfranchised as they are widely supported across the country as opposed to the SNP and liberals who are strong in certain areas?
Vegas Seagull
New member
- Jul 10, 2009
- 7,782
I am, haven't you noticed!?
- Apr 13, 2015
- 3,858
Indeed SNP = 1.5 - 2m votes, 45-50 seats, UKIP = 4-5m votes, 1-3 seats
pastafarian
Well-known member
i think we may have to look at fptp again,i know we just have but the dynamic has changed,personally i dont want it because it dilutes the Tory or labour vote.....but it really is unfair as hell. UKIP wont benefit because after a referendum when people have voted they cease to exist anyway,but the greens would definitly benefit according to their membership......we will have to wait and see how that transfers into votes in this election
- Thread starter
- #4,535
Anything new since page 8...you're being generous there!
And of course, there's always time for Kraftwerk.
pastafarian
Well-known member
In that case musical interlude for all the political peeps......22 mins of Kraftwerk Autobahn........pure genius!
would never happen in..........
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
New Poll in South Thanet from the Express:
UKIP 39
Con 30
Lab 26
Have to take the poll with a pinch of salt, having been done by UKIP Donor Alan Brown and published by a UKIP newspaper!
UKIP 39
Con 30
Lab 26
Have to take the poll with a pinch of salt, having been done by UKIP Donor Alan Brown and published by a UKIP newspaper!
somerset
New member
I am wondering if that is any different to the polls done by the Guardian, then published by them,...... its all partisan, thats the nature of an election.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 12,273
i agree, in a democracy the nationalists should have every right to be in government as dangerous as that is, as much as the BNP as dangerous as they would be for different reasons, but their being there is not democratic and this is not really democracy, its a quasi system that favours the 2 big parties branded as democracy, where most peoples votes mean nothing and one of the smaller parties with massively less support than others can get a much bigger % of seats.
I wouldnt have any problems if the SNP were the third largest party in westminster if they had the 3rd largest support, but they they dont get anywhere near that.
The SNP will likely end up third largest in Westminster, but how can they have 10x more seats than a party that get almost 3 times their national vote (UKIP), twice as many seats as a party that got double their vote (Lib Dem) and 50x more seats that a party who got 1% more of the national vote than them (Green) is utterly ludicrous and not democratic.
It is what it is but most peoples vote means nothing, the system is not democratic or representative at all. The 2 big boys have carved out the system that most suits them and shuts out others, and in that system, The SNP will be in government based on the system alone.
In a real democracy they may also be in government but they would get 4% of seats to reflect their 4% support and not 15% of seats. 100'000's of people more will vote green and with 5% of national vote they will get 0.28% of seats. The greens have more democratic right to be in government and they should get more seats than the SNP as should Lib Dems and UKIP.
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I think on election night there are going to be some really weird results and it is going to revolve around UKIP and tactical voting. I actually think in a lot of seats (100+) in England UKIP may well be running second (and sometimes a close second) to both the Tories and Labour.
Now if you are a traditional Tory voter in a marginal Labour seat, do you switch to UKIP....and conversely if you are a traditional Labour voter in a marginal Tory seat, do you switch to UKIP? (or even Tory to keep out UKIP! which they think may possibly have happened in Rochester and Strood). Or do you just stick to your guns?
It really is a bit unknown as to how UKIP are going to do in traditional Labour areas. Is it going to be negligable or are they going to take seats (I think it is a given they are going to take seats in traditional Tory areas).