[Football] Gareth Southgate bemoans lack of English players

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That thought popped into my head but was quickly dismissed. Do we really want a situation where managers are forced to play certain players while better, or more in form, players are left on the bench?

No. Never.

 

[Seasidesage]

Its a tired argument. The cream always rises to the top - if they're stuck in the Championship then they're not good enough to play for the best teams in England, because the top clubs aren't interested in them, ergo they're not good enough to be selected for England. Premier League clubs always have the best of the English talent. One of the most tiresome arguments when England fail is "why not pick some Championship players, they'll CARE more" - cobblers. They're in the 2nd division because they don't have the talent and/or application to be one of the ones who is capable of playing amongst the very elite.

Out top clubs are STUFFED with excellent english players. Are they as good as the World elite they regularly rub shoulders with in the PL ? No. But then how many countries have a Hazard, a Silva, an Aguero, a Salah, a Kante. We have some amazing talent in the PL, the best from around the world, but we also have plenty of our own who are playing with and against them, and that can only benefit them. I'm a firm believer that if an english player proves he's good enough, then he'll get his chance. Kane for one is proof of that.

We probably had around 80% english players in the top flight in the 70s and 80s, with the rest mainly made up from other home nations, and where did that get us ? If we ony have 30% now, its 30% of the best, most of whom regularly play at the elite level of club football in the Champions League, with the best and against the best. Don't give me this 'selecting from the Championship' bollocks. What a crock of shit.

That nails it for me. The only thing I would add is that the loan system and FFP is encouraging Chelsea and others to retain players just so they can get fees for the loans to get around FFP restrictions this possibly effects the development of some youngsters but in the main football is the greatest meritocracy going. If you're good enough a PL team would start a 3 legged Martian let alone a home grown lad, no amount of quotas are going to make our players better, only better coaching and facilities can do that...

 

[Triggaaar]

That thought popped into my head but was quickly dismissed. Do we really want a situation where managers are forced to play certain players while better, or more in form, players are left on the bench?

Not really, no. But we want to do something. Not much point in having the richest, most competitive top league in the world if the top teams don't have any of our players.

 

[Wozza]

Not really, no. But we want to do something. Not much point in having the richest, most competitive top league in the world if the top teams don't have any of our players.

The billionaire owners who run the Premier League would disagree...

 

[Icy Gull]

I used to feel quite strongly about the number of foreigners playing in the Premier League but since we’ve got there I’ve changed my fickle mind

One, English players are more expensive.

Two, we’d have got relegated last season if we’d fielded a team of Brits imo.

Three, I’m far more interested in seeing Brighton have a great team than seeing England have one.

 

[Simster]

Not really, no. But we want to do something. Not much point in having the richest, most competitive top league in the world if the top teams don't have any of our players.

But they do. Chelsea are the exception from the top 6.

 

[Triggaaar]

But they do. Chelsea are the exception from the top 6.

I'll go back to bed then.

 

[SussexSeahawk]

The irony in all this for me is that at the moment the 'solution' is making things worse. Having a quota of 12 HGP means that the back half of your squad will predominantly be British. Firstly it forces the few players who are considered first team standard to go for ludicrous prices, which is part of the reason why it is cheaper to buy a player from abroad. The difficulty of getting first team British players then puts greater emphasis on having your reserves be British (I'm aware that British and HGP aren't precisely the same, but they are very closely linked). This leads to situations where players who might otherwise be playing regularly for weaker sides are stuck on the bench. Examples include: Danny Drinkwater, basically any english player who has moved to Man City, Phil Jones and closer to home, it wasn't too far away from being the case for Walton (thankfully we support a club that isn't short-termist enough to keep Walton as reserve keeper).

Imo any system attempting improve English prospects, but that provides incentives for clubs to keep players in their reserves instead of playing 1st team football is crzy.

 

[Giraffe]

Whilst 30% is not in itself a problem. As others have said these will presumably be the best, and that's enough to select an England squad. However the worrying thing is the trend. If it is a manageable 30% now, will it become 20% or 10% in five years?

Not sure what the stats are in the last ten years, but I'd be surprised if the graph doesn't just fall year on year.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

It's also worth noting that Chelsea, and many other clubs to be fair, harvest young English talent and then farm them out to the Championship and below. They'll probably never get close to the 1st team but if they end up in the Championship maybe Southgate will spot them.

Indeed. City do the same. As long as the biggest clubs hoover up all the young talent and stop them from playing competitively for years is going to always be a big problem.


Loftus Cheek is a good example. Had he not gone to Palace, a team that play a strong counter-attacking style, with quite a high emphasis on attacking, rather than another middling Premier League team he would probably never have got onto the England radar. Even worse these stars will be loaned to the Championship, where they are off the radar entirely.

I'm sure the Big 6 have many players who are good enough to play in the Premier League somewhere, and could, with a good run of games, come into England reckoning, but won't get that chance and remain in an U23 team or loaned out to the Championship.

 

[Postman Pat]

But they do. Chelsea are the exception from the top 6.

Are you excluding Arsenal from the top 6 then, because they don't field any Englishmen either! No starters last week, and only Welbeck and Holding on the bench. Against Chelsea it was Welbeck on the bench only. At least Chelsea started Ross Barkley in that game.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

This is a key part of the argument.. the gap to the Top 6 in terms of power is such that the best English players are far less likely to get a game there and that is Southgate's key issue. Danny Drinkwater a classic example - arguably one of the better midfielders of a certain type (Henderson, Dier) when he went to Chelsea, but just hasn't been seen since. His issue could simply be that he isn't better than Kante, one of the world's very best in his position. From an England perpsective he may have been better staying at Leicester, (see Vardy). Loftus-Cheek performs well at Palace gets in the squad, but unlikley to play much for Chelsea and will probably move in January - is he not good enough or is it being at the wrong club? However it is hard to ignore that fact that some players do make it, even after big moves : Trippier recently, Kyle Walker has competed well for a spot at City, John Stones continues to battle at City, Luke Shaw at Man Utd, Jesse Lingard, Rashford are others who have forced their way in when given the chance. Sturridge an example of the opposite - even with his move to WBA, didn't appear to demand further attention based on his performances..
But it is also true that for the rest of the Clubs outside of the Big 6 need to find value for money still in an effort to survive, and English players are simply too expensive and still represent a gamble. Grealish was reportedly priced at near £30m. The championship Clubs also need to ask for that kind of money because they are gambling to get to the PL.. There isn't one fix IMO. Southgate will need to stick to his principles and select players who are playing regularly.. If players want to play for England badly enough, they will make decisions about their careers that make that more likely for them.. relentless development at a big Club, forcing their way in, or move to Clubs that allow them to play and demonstrate that they have what it takes.

Bit disappointed RLC didn’t push for a move, he may well play but it’s unlikely.

Players need to take responsibility as much as the clubs.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Its a tired argument. The cream always rises to the top .

I don't think that's true though in reality.

We are in a world of where people expect IMMEDIATE quality. People seem to expect players to be the finished product at 21. If you haven't broken into a team by 20 then forget it.

Manager's in the premier league are not given 4 or 5 years anymore or long term projects. There is literally NO incentive for a manager to risk his job by throwing in a youth talent, still learning his trade but potentially likely to make a mistake. Why do that when your club can go out and buy the finished article with their ZILLIONS of premier league money?

Players improve by playing football. They always have done and they always will. Look at Jadon Sancho. By all accounts he is one HELL of a talent. Saw that his path was blocked at Man City and he wouldn't be given the time he needs. Moved on to play football. Look at Harry Kane. Loan move after loan move. Getting minutes of competitive football in his legs before, due to a sudden path opening up, he got time playing in the Europa League for Spurs and took his chance. I have no doubt if he didn't hit the ground running, Spurs would have gone out and bought another striker.

Englands youth teams have EXCELLED at their respective International competitions, so we KNOW they are good for their age group. How many of them will play in their domestic league compared to the French lads, the germans? I imagine it will be FAR less.

The cream has to be DEVELOPED first. Currently we are in a world where the cream, in it's snazzy pot, is purchased from a French club and drizzled straight onto our football pudding*






*I will stick with this analogy if it kills me.

 

[Icy Gull]

I don't think that's true though in reality.

We are in a world of where people expect IMMEDIATE quality. People seem to expect players to be the finished product at 21. If you haven't broken into a team by 20 then forget it.

Manager's in the premier league are not given 4 or 5 years anymore or long term projects. There is literally NO incentive for a manager to risk his job by throwing in a youth talent, still learning his trade but potentially likely to make a mistake. Why do that when your club can go out and buy the finished article with their ZILLIONS of premier league money?

Players improve by playing football. They always have done and they always will. Look at Jadon Sancho. By all accounts he is one HELL of a talent. Saw that his path was blocked at Man City and he wouldn't be given the time he needs. Moved on to play football. Look at Harry Kane. Loan move after loan move. Getting minutes of competitive football in his legs before, due to a sudden path opening up, he got time playing in the Europa League for Spurs and took his chance. I have no doubt if he didn't hit the ground running, Spurs would have gone out and bought another striker.

Englands youth teams have EXCELLED at their respective International competitions, so we KNOW they are good for their age group. How many of them will play in their domestic league compared to the French lads, the germans? I imagine it will be FAR less.

The cream has to be DEVELOPED first. Currently we are in a world where the cream, in it's snazzy pot, is purchased from a French club and drizzled straight onto our football pudding*






*I will stick with this analogy if it kills me.

Is it Creme Anglais?

 

[Rich Suvner]

Its a tired argument. The cream always rises to the top - if they're stuck in the Championship then they're not good enough to play for the best teams in England, because the top clubs aren't interested in them, ergo they're not good enough to be selected for England..

if the player is relatively young and making a big impact, then why not pick a Championship player? they could well be on the radar of Premier League clubs - who just haven't bought them yet.

 

[Icy Gull]

if the player is relatively young and making a big impact, then why not pick a Championship player? they could well be on the radar of Premier League clubs - who just haven't bought them yet.

What are the chances of an English Championship team player in any position being better placed to play for England than one already playing in the Premier League though?

Not disagreeing with you but I am struggling to think of a Championship player who is better than we already have.

 

[Easy 10]

You are making highly selective arguments there.

Firstly - there wasn’t one. Not one Englishman started for Chelsea at the weekend. How can that in any way be right? In fact how many English players started at the so called top six at the weekend? Most of the top games in Premier League are foreigners playing against each other. Great for them when Lukaku is playing against Kompany or Kante but not when you have no Englishman playing.

You also say we got nowhere in the seventies with mainly English players but what about the sixties? We did ok then. Also when you look at England’s record then, it actually wasn’t so bad and you could argue they were very unlucky not qualify for the two world cups when the criteria were much stricter than they are now. Oh and Scotland qualified with mainly English based players.

It seems to me that it is just an easier option to buy in an above average foreign player than take a chance on English youth. And that can never be good.

Why pick out the Chelsea lineup from last weekend to make a point ? You can't get more 'highly selective' than that. England have been very well represented over the last 10 years by Chelsea players, who have consistently won major honours with them domestically and in Europe. Chelsea have had all-foreign lineups before in the past (weren't they the first ever to field a team with no englishmen back in the 90's ?), yet later on, we've had the likes of Terry, Lampard, Le Saux, Cahill, Cole etc. It goes in cycles, just like at most clubs.

As for the 60's being a successful period for England, which it was (with one crowning moment), what happened after that ? We stood still, while the rest of the world caught up. Nothing to do with being nearly all english players in the top flight. We just weren't very good. Sure we had more choice of players at our disposal, but like cable TV, that wasn't necessarily a good thing. The shit was just more thinly spread.

England players are all over the shop in the Premier League, most of them playing regularly for our top clubs in Europe. We've never had an embarrassment of riches in every position in my living memory, but thats not because we're overrun by average foreign players IMO, thats never been the case. Clubs can afford better quality now, so for England players to break through, they too have to be better. All the PL clubs are able to afford some of, if not THE best players in the world now, so given the quality in the PL these days, I don't think 30% is too bad a number.

 

[Easy 10]

if the player is relatively young and making a big impact, then why not pick a Championship player? they could well be on the radar of Premier League clubs - who just haven't bought them yet.

Because they're making a "big impact" against Barnsley and Hull. Knockaert can do that, but would he deserve a place in the french squad off the back of it ? As we've seen from last season, the answer is quite clearly no. He hasn't really made the step up in class.

Sessegnon at Fulham might be one to watch, as he has been excellent for them in the 2nd division. Can he do it in the Premier League ? We're about to find out. And if he can consistently do it against the best, then get him in that squad, Gareth. If he can't, then well, he's another Knockaert isn' he.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

What are the chances of an English Championship team player in any position being better placed to play for England than one already playing in the Premier League though?

.

David Nugent was at Preston when he was called up.

I'm assuming Stoke's Jack Butland has been called up for the latest squad.

 

[clippedgull]

I don't think the premier league or championship should have international breaks. Keeping the competitions going forces clubs to use youngsters and players who don't have much of an opportunity.

I agree with this. Even players not picked for their international sides should be good enough to step up for a couple of games. I hate the way the season is broken up with these breaks. Not going to happen though.