France and Greece say NO to austerity

[Beach Hut]

Bit like our industry being pissed up the wall in the eighties then?

All the ones that were low profit margins as opposed to services

 

[Chicken Runner61]

The difference is the size.

Our current debt is £2311.6 billion, and increasing by £122 billion this year.

Any ideas how to reduce that?

TB

You think I'm supporting New labour don't you?

How much is everyone elses?

And Osbourne has now said he will have to increase it,

 

[Tory Boy]

Our current debt is £2311.6 billion, and increasing by £122 billion this year.

I know I'm not unique in being able to use a calculator, but that equates to £35,000 (ish) for every man women and child in the UK.

TB

 

[Chicken Runner61]

All the ones that were low profit margins as opposed to services

Ah but should we have trashed it all? Steel? Coal? Rail

 

[beorhthelm]

Pretty sure this has already been posted, but is it a lack of understanding, as you put it, or a lack of willingness to suffer in order to solve a problem that was not theirs in the first place?

You say the choice is between "austerity and bankruptcy". For a lot of ordinary people, that reads "bankruptcy or bankruptcy" on a personal level. Do you honestly expect people to stand up and take a punishment for the 'greater good' of their country, when they didn't cause the problem in the first place and won't see the benefits if it is overcome?

but they did cause the problem. they dont pay their taxes, have a large workforce as part of the state with nepotism and inefficency rife. they borrowed heavily on the back of being in the Euro, benefiting from German economic prudence. they used Daddy's credit card to fund a life of luxury thats been found out, they lied through their teeth about revenues and GDP numbers for years. its really, really shit for the farmers, the bar owners, etc who where making a living through their own efforts and hopfully they will be best placed to recover quickest once they default and leave the Euro.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I know I'm not unique in being able to use a calculator, but that equates to £35,000 (ish) for every man women and child in the UK.

TB

No you misunderstand, Is our debt level greater or less that other countries say France or Italy?

 

[Tory Boy]

How much is everyone elses?

They tend to use the % of GDP for league tables, and this one from the Economics Blog is as good as any.

List of National Debt by Country | Economics Blog

TB

 

[Tory Boy]

No you misunderstand, Is our debt level greater or less that other countries say France or Italy?

In some respects you have to ask does it matter?

That sort of debt will never, IMO, be paid. Which in-turn will effect our country for a very very long time.

Despite what some politicians will tell us, there is no easy answers, only pain I'm afraid.

TB

 

[Tory Boy]

Ah but should we have trashed it all? Steel? Coal? Rail

Thankfully the coal is still there.

TB

 

[Chicken Runner61]

but they did cause the problem. they dont pay their taxes, have a large workforce as part of the state with nepotism and inefficency rife. they borrowed heavily on the back of being in the Euro, benefiting from German economic prudence. they used Daddy's credit card to fund a life of luxury thats been found out, they lied through their teeth about revenues and GDP numbers for years. its really, really shit for the farmers, the bar owners, etc who where making a living through their own efforts and hopfully they will be best placed to recover quickest once they default and leave the Euro.

So the Germans (ok Europe) lent them loads of money, with which they bought many German goods especially cars which made Germany economically stronger and now Greece have to pay massive interest on that debt back to ...... Oh yes the Germans!

German prudence? Who did the credit rating for Greece?

 

[Beach Hut]

Ah but should we have trashed it all? Steel? Coal? Rail

Coal was pointless as cheaper abroad so was steel.

I believe we still have a railways as I intend to catch to 0701 to London tomorrow

 

[ATFC Seagull]

but they did cause the problem. they dont pay their taxes, have a large workforce as part of the state with nepotism and inefficency rife. they borrowed heavily on the back of being in the Euro, benefiting from German economic prudence. they used Daddy's credit card to fund a life of luxury thats been found out, they lied through their teeth about revenues and GDP numbers for years. its really, really shit for the farmers, the bar owners, etc who where making a living through their own efforts and hopfully they will be best placed to recover quickest once they default and leave the Euro.

Most of the things you have listed there are actions taken by government and/or banking sector, not ordinary workers. You have explained why Greece as a nation is to blame for it's own predicament, you have not explained why ordinary Greek workers are. What has an ordinary industry or public sector worker done to contribute to this? Ok, maybe economically speaking their job might have been unaffordable, but it's not them who made this decision, and I think it's fair to say that in most cases they no doubt worked hard and contributed to their society.

I don't think anyone anywhere is denying that you need to deal with a debt crisis, but its who should pay and how much that is the issue.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

In some respects you have to ask does it matter?

That sort of debt will never, IMO, be paid. Which in-turn will effect our country for a very very long time.

Despite what some politicians will tell us, there is no easy answers, only pain I'm afraid.

TB

But you seem to think that we had the only government that did this - we didn't. My point is that the tories would have done exactly the same as New Labour - the proof is that until 2008 not one of them was worried about it. They never saw the banking crisis coming and many had their noses in the trough too.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I disagree.

When the world was doing fine was when we should have saved for this rainy day, not pissed our money up the wall.

TB

Had Labour not had to make up 18 years of under/lack of investment in all manner of areas from dentists to leaky school roofs then they might have been able to save some money.

 

[beorhthelm]

But you miss the point of why this weekend is important for everyone - The French elections mean there is another choice for greece, if the French start to renegotiate the previous agreements it allows Greece a door to ask for its terms to be renegotiated and that will tell how much the Germans (and everyone else) want to keep them in.

it doesnt offer another choice for Greece. the two are very different kettles of fish. France has the clout to renegotiate and more importantly the funds to defer the costs, they can pay their way (though i read in all this their interest payments are the second largest government spend item). Greece was f***ed, they were bailed out on the proviso they overhaul their finances - so they are still f***ed. they have no choice, if they renaged on the deal there is no one else to turn to and fund them. 22.9% on the 10yr Greek government bonds, the only creditor willing to lend is the ECB. Both have broken all the rules on fiscal stabilitiy within the Euro, along with Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and probably Belgium. The only reason they havent been expelled is because the creators of the Euro never anticipated anyone would leave so have no mechanism or system by which to seperate a nation from the currency.

Best thing for Greece is to leave and take the severe pain of bankruptcy for a few years rather than their projected long lingering illness, the banks have rolled over the Greek debt for 30 years already now, its effectivly writen off, so theres little knock on effect now.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Coal was pointless as cheaper abroad so was steel.

I believe we still have a railways as I intend to catch to 0701 to London tomorrow

Its not cheaper now though is it?

How much is that rail ticket?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Coal was pointless as cheaper abroad so was steel.

Was this ultimately the case though? Low cost centres are only low cost initially. When everyone starts to purchase from such places the simple laws of supply and demand raise the prices.

 

[Beach Hut]

Its not cheaper now though is it?

How much is that rail ticket?

I suspect it is, rail ticket costs nothing since you ask

 

[Tory Boy]

But you seem to think that we had the only government that did this - we didn't. My point is that the tories would have done exactly the same as New Labour - the proof is that until 2008 not one of them was worried about it. They never saw the banking crisis coming and many had their noses in the trough too.

I would have hoped the Tories wouldn't have got us into such a deep mess, but you are right I and we will never know.

However we are in that mess, and very hard decisions need to be taken, and we all need to pay the price.

And we will all be paying it for a very long time.

TB

 

[Beach Hut]

Was this ultimately the case though? Low cost centres are only low cost initially. When everyone starts to purchase from such places the simple laws of supply and demand raise the prices.

Possibly now however coal is rarely used that much as it was mined when we did it