Fox hunting

[clapham_gull]

Glad to see Cameron finally seeing sense.

Using hounds to kill a fox is more effective than a bullet and the fox will invariably suffer less.

Also this argument that it is just toffs who go hunting is complete boll##ks. I hunt with the Quorn in Leicestershire and am most definitely 'working class' as are many others, both mounted and foot followers.

You see, this I find very odd as mentioned before. Those for and against always talk about the fox. Whether it's a cuddly animal or vermin. Frankly I don't care either way.

What I find surprising is the amount of hounds a hunt goes through in order to control foxes.

Can I ask you in all sincerity and as a hypocritical meat eater, how many hounds did your hunt put down last year ?

They are obviously bred as pack animals, can't be rehomed and need to be exterminated when their "working life" is over which I understand is usually about half their life expectancy.

Is that just part of the game ? I just struggle to understand this efficiency argument.

 

[lawros left foot]

With a bloody great whole in the face. How would you like it if I climbed up on the Amex roof next home game, lower a rope with a hook and grab hold of your jaw. Pull you up 60ft then just pull the hook out and throw you back down to you're seat?

Much better than being chased for miles and miles by a pack of hounds and horses , being dug out of a safe hole in the ground, made to run until completely exhausted then torn to peices by dogs

 

[junior]

You let yourself down with the unknown fishing analogy mate.

Apologies, I've never been fishing and know little about it.

 

[lawros left foot]

You let yourself down with the unknown fishing analogy mate.

I didn't make one

 

[junior]

July

I've just read some of the other thread that you highlight, it's just you repeating over and over ad nauseum, that fox hunting is more humane than other forms of killing, this isn't proof, this is just your opinion

I'm pretty sure that is the thread that contains my posting of a link to an independent study by RCVS Veterinary Surgeons who concluded that the fox is killed 'almost instantly' when killed by hounds and does not suffer. I don't have the time or inclination to pick through the thread, but you are welcome to and I'm sure it is that thread.

 

[BigGully]

I didn't make one

I know, thats the unknown bit that seems unlikely.

Its an example for me how you can be vehemently against fox hunting without any acknowledgement of other hobbies that might offer equal or more cruelty, you do seem a little obsessed with the participants and their 'class'.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Much better than being chased for miles and miles by a pack of hounds and horses , being dug out of a safe hole in the ground, made to run until completely exhausted then torn to peices by dogs

This

 

[lawros left foot]

But the debate is over whether fox hunting is cruel and if the ban should be lifted. The costs for those involved has no bearing on that, unless of course you are admitting that your 'anti' stance is purely against the type of people that (in your mind) that enjoy hunting rather than any concerns over animal welfare.

I have been accused of being anti toff,and been told that apparently hunting is widely enjoyed across the social strata, I think this is bollocks as the cost of a good hunter, stabling said horse and hunt fees ect, is far beyond the means of most people in this country. It is, therefore, probable that most huntsmen are in the upper 10% of wealthy people. To critcise the bottom 10% of wealth owners in the country, would be ludicrous as , I doubt many of them hunt.

 

[Creaky]

I earn above average wage, I have the normal expenses, could i afford it? How much does it cost you? A reasonable question, if its true you know loads of working class people who do it

We have four horses and are very lucky because we have enough land and stables to keep them without having to put them out to livery which would cost about £225 per month per horse for livery with grazing - in addition to that there are farrier costs of £75 per horse every 6 weeks, dental care approx £40 every 6 months per horse, worming every 12 weeks at about £14 per horse, annual vaccinations at £50 per horse, winter feed and hay at about £100 per month per horse from October to March. Then there is insurance, about £60 per month per horse. Unfortunately because our horses are 'rescue' horses this is not a practical option because so many items are excluded even if we could get then insured!

For a healthy horse in livery you are probably looking at an absolute minimum of £4,250 a year or about £1,500 if you have your own land and yard. On top of that you have to add the cost of tack, rugs, grooming, bowls etc. as well as the cost of the initial purchase and the disposal of the carcass when they come to the end of their life - and the most costly of all, an absolute minimum of an hour and a half each day caring for the horse come hail, rain or sun 365 a days a year!

 

[BigGully]

I have been accused of being anti toff,and been told that apparently hunting is widely enjoyed across the social strata, I think this is bollocks as the cost of a good hunter, stabling said horse and hunt fees ect, is far beyond the means of most people in this country. It is, therefore, probable that most huntsmen are in the upper 10% of wealthy people. To critcise the bottom 10% of wealth owners in the country, would be ludicrous as , I doubt many of them hunt.

Oh come on, your doing it again, get off the class thing, it seems totally irrelevant.

The cruelty aspect seems to be the winner here, if we can ascertain it is cruel, then I am with you, but I dont like the hypocrisy of only banning things perhaps perceived cruel only for the Dysneyfication species and upper class participants.

 

[Crispy Ambulance]

I'm pretty sure that is the thread that contains my posting of a link to an independent study by RCVS Veterinary Surgeons who concluded that the fox is killed 'almost instantly' when killed by hounds and does not suffer. I don't have the time or intelligenceto pick through the thread, but you are welcome to and I'm sure it is that thread.

So when are you doing your sky dive, brave boy?

 

[lawros left foot]

I know, thats the unknown bit that seems unlikely.

Its an example for me how you can be vehemently against fox hunting without any acknowledgement of other hobbies that might offer equal or more cruelty, you do seem a little obsessed with the participants and their 'class'.

I have said that bear baiting, badger baiting, dog fighting, cock fighting and i will ad, bull fighting, the Paloma bull run, are all cruel, in my opinion , and I dont care if a tramp or a King indulges in them, it is equally cruel. I said i don't know much about angling , I can't really offer an opinion, I wouldn't do it myself. Fox hunting to me, is on a level with the former example

 

[Creaky]

I have been accused of being anti toff,and been told that apparently hunting is widely enjoyed across the social strata, I think this is bollocks as the cost of a good hunter, stabling said horse and hunt fees ect, is far beyond the means of most people in this country. It is, therefore, probable that most huntsmen are in the upper 10% of wealthy people. To critcise the bottom 10% of wealth owners in the country, would be ludicrous as , I doubt many of them hunt.

Again you are only associating those taking part in hunts as those in pink coats riding a horse - there are/were far more people taking part in hunts that are not in this category.

 

[lawros left foot]

We have four horses and are very lucky because we have enough land and stables to keep them without having to put them out to livery which would cost about £225 per month per horse for livery with grazing - in addition to that there are farrier costs of £75 per horse every 6 weeks, dental care approx £40 every 6 months per horse, worming every 12 weeks at about £14 per horse, annual vaccinations at £50 per horse, winter feed and hay at about £100 per month per horse from October to March. Then there is insurance, about £60 per month per horse. Unfortunately because our horses are 'rescue' horses this is not a practical option because so many items are excluded even if we could get then insured!

For a healthy horse in livery you are probably looking at an absolute minimum of £4,250 a year or about £1,500 if you have your own land and yard. On top of that you have to add the cost of tack, rugs, grooming, bowls etc. as well as the cost of the initial purchase and the disposal of the carcass when they come to the end of their life - and the most costly of all, an absolute minimum of an hour and a half each day caring for the horse come hail, rain or sun 365 a days a year!

Thank you, more than I can afford then

 

[junior]

I have been accused of being anti toff,and been told that apparently hunting is widely enjoyed across the social strata, I think this is bollocks as the cost of a good hunter, stabling said horse and hunt fees ect, is far beyond the means of most people in this country. It is, therefore, probable that most huntsmen are in the upper 10% of wealthy people. To critcise the bottom 10% of wealth owners in the country, would be ludicrous as , I doubt many of them hunt.

You think it's bollocks? What are you basing that on?

I earn £26k a year. Not exactly minimum wage, but I bet if you did a poll of NSC users (which i suspect contains a goid cross section of society) you'd find that not a million miles away from an average salary. On that salary I managed to do everything you mention above as well as run a horsebox and compete at show jumping to a reasonable level in the summer months. Oh, and go to most away games and a few home games every season.

What are you basing your preconceived ideas about how much it costs to go hunting on?

 

[junior]

Oh come on, your doing it again, get off the class thing, it seems totally irrelevant.

This, with bells on. I think most people reading this thread can see that.

 

[junior]

So when are you doing your sky dive, brave boy?

Eh?

 

[lawros left foot]

Oh come on, your doing it again, get off the class thing, it seems totally irrelevant.

The cruelty aspect seems to be the winner here, if we can ascertain it is cruel, then I am with you, but I dont like the hypocrisy of only banning things perhaps perceived cruel only for the Dysneyfication species and upper class participants.

During the seventies and eighties, I used to follow our club home and away, I have a badly broken nose, and, due to serving in the forces, short hair. I was often stopped and searched by the old bill because I looked like a hoolie. Had I been an old dear who went to the football, I doubt I would have been searched a tenth of the number of times i was, this is because, as a young man I was far more likely to indulge in a ruck than my Grandmother. It's the same with hunting, it is far more likely to be an upper class thing than a working class activity,and that is a fact, no matter how much you consider me to be an inverted snob, and had hunting been working class, they would have banned along with the other animal cruelty sports

 

[lawros left foot]

You think it's bollocks? What are you basing that on?

I earn £26k a year. Not exactly minimum wage, but I bet if you did a poll of NSC users (which i suspect contains a goid cross section of society) you'd find that not a million miles away from an average salary. On that salary I managed to do everything you mention above as well as run a horsebox and compete at show jumping to a reasonable level in the summer months. Oh, and go to most away games and a few home games every season.

What are you basing your preconceived ideas about how much it costs to go hunting on?

On 26k? Are you sure? And you hunt with the quorn hunt in winter, as another poster said bare minimum to keep a horse is 4.24k per annum, that was without transport. How much are your hunt fees?just out of interest

 

[Creaky]

During the seventies and eighties, I used to follow our club home and away, I have a badly broken nose, and, due to serving in the forces, short hair. I was often stopped and searched by the old bill because I looked like a hoolie. Had I been an old dear who went to the football, I doubt I would have been searched a tenth of the number of times i was, this is because, as a young man I was far more likely to indulge in a ruck than my Grandmother. It's the same with hunting, it is far more likely to be an upper class thing than a working class activity,and that is a fact, no matter how much you consider me to be an inverted snob, and had hunting been working class, they would have banned along with the other animal cruelty sports

It simply isn't a fact!

Are those who look after the hounds on a minimum wage toffs? What of the farm workers that do much of the preparation for the hunt? The followers on bicycles or foot can hardly be described as toffs nor those providing refreshments yet they are all equally part of the hunt which couldn't take place without them and are ultimately just as responsible for any cruelty that is carried out.