[Misc] Fox hunting banned on National Trust land

[dsr-burnley]

Where did I ever make that claim

Sorry. You didn't, it was Wardy's twin who claimed that and I hadn't spotted that I was replying to someone else.

 

[dsr-burnley]

You know and I know that my comment was there to stir a reaction from you and the one i got was classic, you are going to deny all the truths in my statement because of that line which interestingly you have not denied and then you have the audacity to say my views are based on blind prejudice and are illogical.

The logic is simple if you believe bear and badger baiting is cruel then why not fox hunting as well, it ends in the same result which is a tormented animal torn apart by dogs.

You say you know about cubbing but in your previous reply you said fox hunting only effected the the old and those near death so that original statement was untrue so your argument is beginning to look very weak.

How can you say that the increased suffering to foxes due to cubbing is nil, they are ripped apart . You then say that the majority of cubs die young therefore cubbing is ok because it is only doing what nature does . I have to say that's a very perverse argument. If it were applied to people there would be no need for hospitals , why fix people when they were going to die anyway and killers could say well I killed him but he was going to die anyway so its not a crime...Doesn't sound right to me.

But let's get our feet back on the ground, its illegal to hunt foxes with dogs and has been since 2004 yet some parts of the population think they are above the law and have continued to do it , most normal people think its not acceptable and the NT population reflect that in the way they voted. Not anti posh, anti-toff but supporting the law of the land.

If I remember correctly you are quite happy for badgers to be culled even though the science says the main issues around TB are down to farming practice is that correct?

OK, since you make a point of it, I formally deny that I am in favour of badger baiting.

As it happens, I wouldn't agree that badger baiting and fox hunting are morally equivalent. Quite a lot of things end in the same result but it doesn't mean the means of getting there make no difference. Fox hunting has as its end result either a dead fox which goes from healthy to dead very quickly, or it leaves a live, healthy fox. There is no fighting involved because the fox is vastly outnumbered by larger animals. The hounds remain healthy in either case. Badger baiting involves breaking the badger's front legs so it can still fight but no very effectively, and putting perhaps 2 dogs into the ring and seeing how long the fight will last. It ends with all three animals injured or dead, slowly and painfully. I am surprised you see it as a logical equivalent.

I didn't say that hunting only affects foxes that are old or near death, so I can't really answer that point.

Being "ripped apart" is always cited as being a Bad Thing for foxes. Yes, it kills them. But as a means of killing, it's relatively humane - certainly more humane than being killed by a misplaced shot, or poisoned, or gassed, or killed by just one hound. Not as humane perhaps as being killed by an accurately placed shot, but that isn't always easy. Not that it's particularly relevant to a ban on drag hunting.

Do you normally apply the same arguments to people as to animals? I am going to eat part of a pig for my tea. If that was applied to people, it would be cannibalsim and would be illegal. So rather than try an apply it to people, why don't we apply it to foxes instead. Three quarters of fox cubs (in a steady population) don't make it to a year old. If one dies instantly when killed by hounds, then another (that may have died of starvation) will instead occupy the hunting ground that the first would have chosen, and will live. Just like with birds and other small mammals, the number that survive the winter is more a function of how much food is available rather than a function of how many are killed. The variables like food supply determine how many will survive, and the number that die is the balancing figure.

Finally, I would support badger culling more for the sake of hedgehogs and other small mammals than for the sake of cattle. With badgers being top of the land-based natural food chain in this country, it's not healthy for the lower orders to have too many badgers at the top.

 

[Wardy's twin]

It's not that tiny a minority. How many people own domestic cats? Many of them facilitate the deaths of wild animals. It's easy enough to draw a line just beyond where I am and say that I am moral and right and people the other side of my line are immoral and wrong. Plenty of people who eat meat would say that killing animals for their own pleasure of eating them is fine; killing animals for the pleasure of a ride out is not fine. But to a vegetarian, those people are on the same side of the line as the drag hunters.

Do you honestly believe that everyone, or even a the majority, who follows a drag hunt does it because they enjoy killing wild animals?

Drag hunts are a myth see this https://www.facebook.com/groups/723821897815599/user/1471557085/?__cft__[0]=AZWkw2DgCZwB8M7_IXgrZZM5_sWnzwh-MpqHOfcOd9ifsGiQqdamFz6xixjj5_SJV67OhEcgK52rXMqVjh0vCpaufo8M0-3oqBA-B41gJy67pHL80IRUybM4mjKQWb4Slo3UZa1qZ5-250hKIyDHGxuZ9_lo27koFIcPYSNFyOLcODmGovlAdHQcP1iV1zJ7xiICdQTSsdZAA1z8zFpKZLoN&__tn__=-]C%2CP-R.

You will be aware of the recent court case where they were caught out about the lies and the deceits they use and it was this disclosure that triggered the second NT vote on the subject ( the previous vote to ban hunting was overturned by the NT board).

Certainly there is a large element of the hunt following who enjoy the kill , Boris himself wrote of the sexual arousal he felt . His words not mine.

You say its not a tiny minority as though you are happy about that given the previous reference was talking about psychopaths.

Agree with you about cats, i like them but won't have one and do think the numbers should be controlled - not by hunting but by licensing them and restricting numbers . I don't think I could win a vote banning them completely e.g. ask most people whether they want a slow worm in the garden or a cat to stroke then latter will always win.

I am a meat eater, I am reducing the amount I eat and would ask others to do the same even if its because you are focussed on reducing greenhouse gases. Personally I am aware that my vegan daughter is annoyed that i still eat meat. and i do need to do better . But the fox hunting debate is not about eating meat its about cruelty and its about how we treat our wildlife . We can't complain about endangered animals in the Amazon when we don't look after our own.

 

[Weststander]

You know and I know that my comment was there to stir a reaction from you and the one i got was classic, you are going to deny all the truths in my statement because of that line which interestingly you have not denied and then you have the audacity to say my views are based on blind prejudice and are illogical.

The logic is simple if you believe bear and badger baiting is cruel then why not fox hunting as well, it ends in the same result which is a tormented animal torn apart by dogs.

You say you know about cubbing but in your previous reply you said fox hunting only effected the the old and those near death so that original statement was untrue so your argument is beginning to look very weak.

How can you say that the increased suffering to foxes due to cubbing is nil, they are ripped apart . You then say that the majority of cubs die young therefore cubbing is ok because it is only doing what nature does . I have to say that's a very perverse argument. If it were applied to people there would be no need for hospitals , why fix people when they were going to die anyway and killers could say well I killed him but he was going to die anyway so its not a crime...Doesn't sound right to me.

But let's get our feet back on the ground, its illegal to hunt foxes with dogs and has been since 2004 yet some parts of the population think they are above the law and have continued to do it , most normal people think its not acceptable and the NT population reflect that in the way they voted. Not anti posh, anti-toff but supporting the law of the land.

If I remember correctly you are quite happy for badgers to be culled even though the science says the main issues around TB are down to farming practice is that correct?

It’s not just toffs.

Also rural working class thugs, who often also participate in other outright illegal cruel activities.

All of whom think they can selectively opt out of the laws of the land. Corrupt or biased rural coppers turning a blind eye.


For economic/fiscal reasons I was against having a Corbyn/Momentum government. But one silver lining for me would I think have been the crushing once and for all of fox hunting and the lie that is trail hunting.

I think that day will happen.

 

[Wardy's twin]

OK, since you make a point of it, I formally deny that I am in favour of badger baiting.

As it happens, I wouldn't agree that badger baiting and fox hunting are morally equivalent. Quite a lot of things end in the same result but it doesn't mean the means of getting there make no difference. Fox hunting has as its end result either a dead fox which goes from healthy to dead very quickly, or it leaves a live, healthy fox. There is no fighting involved because the fox is vastly outnumbered by larger animals. The hounds remain healthy in either case. Badger baiting involves breaking the badger's front legs so it can still fight but no very effectively, and putting perhaps 2 dogs into the ring and seeing how long the fight will last. It ends with all three animals injured or dead, slowly and painfully. I am surprised you see it as a logical equivalent.

I didn't say that hunting only affects foxes that are old or near death, so I can't really answer that point.

Being "ripped apart" is always cited as being a Bad Thing for foxes. Yes, it kills them. But as a means of killing, it's relatively humane - certainly more humane than being killed by a misplaced shot, or poisoned, or gassed, or killed by just one hound. Not as humane perhaps as being killed by an accurately placed shot, but that isn't always easy. Not that it's particularly relevant to a ban on drag hunting.

Do you normally apply the same arguments to people as to animals? I am going to eat part of a pig for my tea. If that was applied to people, it would be cannibalsim and would be illegal. So rather than try an apply it to people, why don't we apply it to foxes instead. Three quarters of fox cubs (in a steady population) don't make it to a year old. If one dies instantly when killed by hounds, then another (that may have died of starvation) will instead occupy the hunting ground that the first would have chosen, and will live. Just like with birds and other small mammals, the number that survive the winter is more a function of how much food is available rather than a function of how many are killed. The variables like food supply determine how many will survive, and the number that die is the balancing figure.

Finally, I would support badger culling more for the sake of hedgehogs and other small mammals than for the sake of cattle. With badgers being top of the land-based natural food chain in this country, it's not healthy for the lower orders to have too many badgers at the top.

OK, since you make a point of it, I formally deny that I am in favour of badger baiting. - I never thought you were said it get a reaction

As it happens, I wouldn't agree that badger baiting and fox hunting are morally equivalent. Quite a lot of things end in the same result but it doesn't mean the means of getting there make no difference. Fox hunting has as its end result either a dead fox which goes from healthy to dead very quickly, or it leaves a live, healthy fox. There is no fighting involved because the fox is vastly outnumbered by larger animals. The hounds remain healthy in either case. Badger baiting involves breaking the badger's front legs so it can still fight but no very effectively, and putting perhaps 2 dogs into the ring and seeing how long the fight will last. It ends with all three animals injured or dead, slowly and painfully. I am surprised you see it as a logical equivalent.

We disagree . IMO they are morally the same because the viewer derives pleasure from what is animal cruelty be it a prolonged chase and kill or a long fight and kill

I didn't say that hunting only affects foxes that are old or near death, so I can't really answer that point. reread what you wrote you implied that it takes the weak ones

Being "ripped apart" is always cited as being a Bad Thing for foxes. Yes, it kills them. But as a means of killing, it's relatively humane - certainly more humane than being killed by a misplaced shot, or poisoned, or gassed, or killed by just one hound. Not as humane perhaps as being killed by an accurately placed shot, but that isn't always easy. I would argue why are they being killed in the first place if its to protect a pheasant shoot that's totally immoral allowing an invasive , non native species walk around un controlled is against the law . Protect the pheasants better Not that it's particularly relevant to a ban on drag hunting. drag hunting is a myth

Do you normally apply the same arguments to people as to animals? David Attenborough does so I think thats a great precedent to follow I am going to eat part of a pig for my tea. If that was applied to people, it would be cannibalsim and would be illegal is it illegality that stops you eating a human or your morals. Note fox hunting is illegal according to 2004 act. So rather than try an apply it to people, why don't we apply it to foxes instead. Three quarters of fox cubs (in a steady population) don't make it to a year old. If one dies instantly when killed by hounds, then another (that may have died of starvation) will instead occupy the hunting ground that the first would have chosen, and will live. Just like with birds and other small mammals, the number that survive the winter is more a function of how much food is available rather than a function of how many are killed. The variables like food supply determine how many will survive, and the number that die is the balancing figure. In a steady environment numbers of cubs often matches what is sustainable i.e. litter sizes increase , decrease. the issue is that with so many changes to farming practice over the last 100+ years has meant that steady does not exist i.e. man is influencing what is happening. What this comes down to is Fox Hunting with a pack of hounds is illegal so the law should be followed.

Finally, I would support badger culling more for the sake of hedgehogs and other small mammals than for the sake of cattle. With badgers being top of the land-based natural food chain in this country, it's not healthy for the lower orders to have too many badgers at the top. The cull is not to protect hedghogs its there to deal with bovine TB even though the science points to Farming malpractice as the real cause of increased numbers. Hedgehog & voles are under threat because their environments have been removed. Badgers and Foxes and Hedgehogs have lived together for the last 10,000 years and yes badgers kill hedgehogs but its only in the last 50 years that there has been a problem. IF there was a direct link with badgers and the hedgehog decline then situation needs reviewing but the focus is on TB.

 

[clapham_gull]

It’s not just toffs.

Also rural working class thugs, who often also participate in other outright illegal cruel activities.

All of whom think they can selectively opt out of the laws of the land. Corrupt or biased rural coppers turning a blind eye.


For economic/fiscal reasons I was against having a Corbyn/Momentum government. But one silver lining for me would I think have been the crushing once and for all of fox hunting and the lie that is trail hunting.

I think that day will happen.

During my personal investigations to learn about fox hunting around the time of the ban, I went to the countryside alliance protests outside Westminster to observe.

Just to point out on a few on here might like to label me as a yoghurt eating urban liberal. I am now, but I was brought up in very rural Sussex (I'm typing from it now) and the Brighton lot on here haven't a clue about the real country, but I digress

It was as stereo-typical as a Fast Show sketch. Barbour jacketed land owners drinking chilled glasses of wine in Westminster whilst simultaneously their manual labourers were kicking off (in the lower field) with Police.

As is usual at such events the Police were pulled in from elsewhere. The ones I spoke to were from Nottingham and fully supported fox hunting but were clearly up for a ruck.

 

[Wardy's twin]

It’s not just toffs.

Also rural working class thugs, who often also participate in other outright illegal cruel activities.

All of whom think they can selectively opt out of the laws of the land. Corrupt or biased rural coppers turning a blind eye.


For economic/fiscal reasons I was against having a Corbyn/Momentum government. But one silver lining for me would I think have been the crushing once and for all of fox hunting and the lie that is trail hunting.

I think that day will happen.

Totally agree its not just toffs but a large part of what is happening is that people at the top tell their employees they won't have a job if they don't defend fox hunting as kennels will close (even though the dogs could be used for drag hunting if done legally) and also that the townies will stop everything that the country people stand for. There are of course numbers of the lower end who enjoy the kill for what it is , a kill. The police don't come out of this well, they clearly show a bias and effectively are aiding and abetting illegal activities by them not acting properly.

 

[Wardy's twin]

During my personal investigations to learn about fox hunting around the time of the ban, I went to the countryside alliance protests outside Westminster to observe.

Just to point out on a few on here might like to label me as a yoghurt eating urban liberal. I am now, but I was brought up in very rural Sussex (I'm typing from it now) and the Brighton lot on here haven't a clue about the real country, but I digress

It was as stereo-typical as a Fast Show sketch. Barbour jacketed land owners drinking chilled glasses of wine in Westminster whilst simultaneously their manual labourers were kicking off (in the lower field) with Police.

As is usual at such events the Police were pulled in from elsewhere. The ones I spoke to were from Nottingham and fully supported fox hunting but were clearly up for a ruck.

who's being really patronising now?

It isn't about just the Toffs and its clear that 'country folk' see townies as not understanding and more importantly a threat to their way of life and hunting is part of it but without their (toffs) money and leadership the issue would be nowhere near as great and it would have moved on. Its a classic example of divide and rule putting poor working class against saboteurs with a mixture of threats about employment and eradicating culture. Its how the empire worked , could have been lifted straight from Northern Ireland.

 

[Weststander]

Vile bitch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59208702

The arrogance I’d expect of a hunts person.

She must be prosecuted.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Vile bitch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59208702

The arrogance I’d expect of a hunts person.

She must be prosecuted.

One of many in the hunt fraternity that see the dogs and horses as a unit of production rather than something owed some respect.

 

[essbee1]

Vile bitch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59208702

The arrogance I’d expect of a hunts person.

She must be prosecuted.

That is shocking. I despair of the human race and the mentality of people who do this.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Vile bitch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59208702

The arrogance I’d expect of a hunts person.

She must be prosecuted.

This scumbag should never be allowed near a horse again

 

[drew]

This scumbag should never be allowed near a horse again

Should be in jail.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Vile bitch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59208702

The arrogance I’d expect of a hunts person.

She must be prosecuted.

One of many in the hunt fraternity that see the dogs and horses as a unit of production rather than something owed some respect.

 

[Weststander]

Should be in jail.

What do you reckon ….. at most, a posh local-to-her magistrate, will very reluctantly issue a minuscule fine, probably making an unwarranted statement “Her previous good character is unsullied”?

 

[Creaky]

Those horses don't look like hunters, (too small), and she's dressed in show gear.

When it comes to show jumping and eventing then mistreatment of horses is just as rife as it is in racing and hunting.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Those horses don't look like hunters, (too small), and she's dressed in show gear.

When it comes to show jumping and eventing then mistreatment of horses is just as rife as it is in racing and hunting.

The spokesman of the Cottesmore Hunt didn’t deny she was one of theirs.

Edit to add she is a primary school teacher and leader of the local Pony club.

 

[Motogull]

Edit to add she is a primary school teacher and leader of the local Pony club.

That occupation was miles off radar when guessing what her job would be.

Not a good look. P45 incoming.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That occupation was miles off radar when guessing what her job would be.

Not a good look. P45 incoming.

She's been suspended from her job, and the Pony Club have binned her off.

[tweet]1458078480164343815[/tweet]

 

[Motogull]

She's been suspended from her job, and the Pony Club have binned her off.

I'm not defending her but I acknowledge she may feel somewhat aggrieved because I bet she has seen worse that has gone unpunished.