[Misc] Fox hunting banned on National Trust land

[clapham_gull]

Wasn't it all going to be bought back under the 2019 Tory manifesto? Or was it 2017 they promised that?

Tories were promised a free vote under May until they realised how unpopular it was with the electorate.




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[lawros left foot]

I pitched up at hunt to join the protests once. What surprised me was how few hunters were on horseback (undoubtedly the wealthy) and how the vast majority were on foot. The latter being the 'working class' of the countryside who appeared to see things in terms of 'urban elite' trying to supress the traditions of the rural working class. It didn't change my stance against fox hunting but it did make me wonder how much of the opposition is about class and less about the fox, Not that the fox cares either way of course!

I grew up in Ashington in the 60s. The hunt was a fairly regular occurrence around our way, my Dads boss used to ride to hounds.
You did get so called working class hunt followers, and no sabs in those days, but, personally I didn’t know any of my mates Dads who followed the hunt, and my Dad , a lifelong countryman was virulently opposed to it. He threatened to give Jimmy Edwards a good hiding for riding his horse through our back garden.

My old man used to think it was cruelty for the sake of it, he was no wilting flower, and would put animals out of their misery, if necessary, but he was never cruel. He said even foxes had a right to life, and it was up to the owner of animals to guard against foxes killing chickens, pheasants etc.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Tories were promised a free vote under May until they realised how unpopular it was with the electorate.




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Agreed but they also know they can get on with illegal hunting with impunity so at the time not worth stirring the issue . The current government is a different matter.

 

[Hugo Rune]

A quick google is easy enough.

Too hard for Dr Q though.

I’m guessing that he’s not a real Doctor then.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Because the law was written up with a lot of grey areas. It should have just banned hunting with dogs in it’s entirety, instead it left a huge amount of wriggle room for the perverts to keep using hounds to tear other creatures to pieces.

If hunting was a working class sport, like Cock fighting, badger baiting, and dog fighting it would have been banned at the same time they were.

My recollection was that the Lords planned to keep chucking it out until it ran out of time. The compromise was necessary to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately the ball did not keep rolling because of local 'countryside' conspiracies (see my post on what the law means) that became entrenched when labour were booted out and 'call me Dave' became PM with his conspicuous blind eye, and the tories, nudged and winked they had no intention of progressing the laws towards a total ban, as they had the important business of Brexit and making Britain Great again to get on with.

If you recall how long it took for all members of society to be equally protected by law (I'm talking legal protection against homophobia and racism here) one can begin to appreciate that edging towards a complete and unequivocal hunt ban may take a decade of concerted incrementation. However we have had a decade of reversal, now.

Stand by, also, if Starmer puts an unequivocal hunt ban, including 'pretend' hunting with dogs (aka, oops, we caught a fox - how did that happen?), into the Labour manifesto it will be "We can see the priorities this shower have set for our great nation", "They have taken their eye off the ball again", "class warriors", "Meanwhile the conservatives are getting on with running the country!".

 

[Wardy's twin]

I would think more than 50% is class related. The known 'rent a sab' groups that pitch up in paramilitary gear certainly don't give a flying **** about Reynard.

I wonder why the NT, Pwackham and his ilk never raise the issue of illegal hare coursing. Equally abhorrent as Fox hunting if you think about it, but as its generally undertaken by the lower classes and our caravan wielding leeches (not the Palace fans!), they steer well clear!

Absolute nonsense and the picture the Countryside Alliance would like to paint as they are getting 'oppressed' by townies and the great unwashed. A lot of the anti-hunt campaigners fall into the hunt monitor groups as describe in a previous post from me. Both have literally put their life on the line to save fox lives.

Most sabs & monitors relate to all wildlife , are antifox hunting, anti game shooting ( due to impact on environment) and are against maltreatment of the hounds.

Illegal hare coursing is also handled but it is less confrontation as the police actually prosecute people caught hare coursing because as you say they are often lower working class or travellers who can't afford lawyers.

 

[lawros left foot]

As a young lad I used to go ‘beating’ for the Wiston House shoot on a Saturday.

It was a well paid job for a youngster and a good laugh. There were a good number of older men who used to do it, as I say,the money was good. I would say that 90% of those blokes would not have done it for the love of seeing someone else shooting pheasants.
If hunting is the same,then are the working class followers in it for the money, or do they love seeing foxes( and other species) killed?

 

[GT49er]

One clear example of the bias from the police is that people who do hare coursing are arrested by police , why because they are usually either travellers or low working class. Note I agree they should arrest them but they need to do that against fox hunters.

Agree with all you say - but just have doubts about your last paragraph. The police going in and arresting travellers just doesn't ring true - they normally steer a mile clear and ignore whatever laws the travellers are breaking!

 

[Weststander]

My recollection was that the Lords planned to keep chucking it out until it ran out of time. The compromise was necessary to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately the ball did not keep rolling because of local 'countryside' conspiracies (see my post on what the law means) that became entrenched when labour were booted out and 'call me Dave' became PM with his conspicuous blind eye, and the tories, nudged and winked they had no intention of progressing the laws towards a total ban, as they had the important business of Brexit and making Britain Great again to get on with.

If you recall how long it took for all members of society to be equally protected by law (I'm talking legal protection against homophobia and racism here) one can begin to appreciate that edging towards a complete and unequivocal hunt ban may take a decade of concerted incrementation. However we have had a decade of reversal, now.

Stand by, also, if Starmer puts an unequivocal hunt ban, including 'pretend' hunting with dogs (aka, oops, we caught a fox - how did that happen?), into the Labour manifesto it will be "We can see the priorities this shower have set for our great nation", "They have taken their eye off the ball again", "class warriors", "Meanwhile the conservatives are getting on with running the country!".

…. and lots of people including here often see the House of Lords as anti-Tory governments, keeping a check on them

IF we must have a chamber, its members should be elected by the public.

Not the remaining hereditary peers, and old colleagues/mates of Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron.


Digressing, respect to former MP Tony Banks MP . He fought fox hunting for decades and he immediately appears in every old article about House of Commons attempts to ban it. A real hero.

 

[Weststander]

Agree with all you say - but just have doubts about your last paragraph. The police going in and arresting travellers just doesn't ring true - they normally steer a mile clear and ignore whatever laws the travellers are breaking!

Because of concerted violence and human rights legislation.

 

[lawros left foot]

Agree with all you say - but just have doubts about your last paragraph. The police going in and arresting travellers just doesn't ring true - they normally steer a mile clear and ignore whatever laws the travellers are breaking!

I’d like to see the stats that prove it is travellers who are more likely to be hare coursing, lamping,etc than lads from rural villages where you do still get council estate type housing.
I am not being classist here, I’m a working class bloke who grew up in the country, myself.

 

[Wardy's twin]

But fox hunting has little or nothing to do with trophy hunting or deforestation. The fox as a species isn't endangered and fox hunting has negligible effort on the environment.

It's an out of date, pretty useless (and now very politicised) method of controlling foxes. But it sits alongside a number of other country activities that are very easy to target, whilst sticking our head in the sand regarding the way meat is produced on an industrial scale, air travel etc... The ones most of us are responsible for, as opposed to ones we aren't.

I don't see it as an "entry level" concern to educate people about wider concerns. They'd be better off concerning themselves about species and environments that are really under threat.

Chris Packham made a very good point a few years ago about the attention and money that went into saving the Panda. As much as he didn't want the Panda to disappear, he acknowledged that the campaign received a disproportionate amount of funding to little effect when it could be better spent elsewhere.

It is very much linked with trophy hunting because they have the same mindset.

You have a different opinion to me - I think people getting involved in things like being antifox hunting gets people thinking wider, its a tangible thing happening on their doorstep rather than on the other side of the world.

Farming practices do need to be resolved , the increase in mega farms in this country is also closely linked to the increase in TB in cows and its the badgers and cows that are paying for it.

Others have said the same thing about the panda campaign forgetting that it provided a brilliant icon which people identified with more difficult to do with a 100 ton blue whale or african painted dogs. They missed a trick by using the funding in the wrong way.

Indications are that the numbers of rural foxes are declining because they are indiscriminately shot as they might pose a threat to lambs or pheasants so while thy are not endangered the numbers are going in the wrong direction.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Agree with all you say - but just have doubts about your last paragraph. The police going in and arresting travellers just doesn't ring true - they normally steer a mile clear and ignore whatever laws the travellers are breaking!

It's small numbers in case of the travellers against a handful or less prosecutions for fox hunters but big enough to show there is a bias in the way the police work.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I’d like to see the stats that prove it is travellers who are more likely to be hare coursing, lamping,etc than lads from rural villages where you do still get council estate type housing.
I am not being classist here, I’m a working class bloke who grew up in the country, myself.

Its both the key point I was trying to make is that these groups are targeted by the police , fox hunting groups don't and the key difference is that the leaders of the fox hunting groups are usually landed & well off and can afford decent lawyers OR are actually mates of senior police some of whom actually also do fox hunting.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Why does fox hunting get all the attention? Let's think about rats and mice instead. There must be millions of people in this country (obviously not in this thread) who at the first sign of mice or rats in their house, would call out a ratcatcher. And what does the ratcatcher do? Puts out a slow-acting poison, deliberately designed to be slow-acting so that not only do adult rats die slow, painful deaths, but also it gives them time to take the food home and feed it to the babies. With the side effect that they die at the bottom of their holes and not in places where their dead bodies would be inconvenient.

why don't the rats and mice get publicity? They are killed in their millions, not their hundreds. Six pages on this thread, and not a person is in favour of killing animals at all, let alone in such a cruel manner - can't a campaign be started to save the rats and mice?

 

[dsr-burnley]

Indications are that the numbers of rural foxes are declining because they are indiscriminately shot as they might pose a threat to lambs or pheasants so while thy are not endangered the numbers are going in the wrong direction.

That's an inevitable side effect. Farmers who hunt have an interest in keeping the fox population healthy. Farmers who don't hunt, don't want foxes on their land.

 

[BadFish]

Why does fox hunting get all the attention? Let's think about rats and mice instead. There must be millions of people in this country (obviously not in this thread) who at the first sign of mice or rats in their house, would call out a ratcatcher. And what does the ratcatcher do? Puts out a slow-acting poison, deliberately designed to be slow-acting so that not only do adult rats die slow, painful deaths, but also it gives them time to take the food home and feed it to the babies. With the side effect that they die at the bottom of their holes and not in places where their dead bodies would be inconvenient.

why don't the rats and mice get publicity? They are killed in their millions, not their hundreds. Six pages on this thread, and not a person is in favour of killing animals at all, let alone in such a cruel manner - can't a campaign be started to save the rats and mice?

You are very welcome to start one DSR.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why does fox hunting get all the attention? Let's think about rats and mice instead. There must be millions of people in this country (obviously not in this thread) who at the first sign of mice or rats in their house, would call out a ratcatcher. And what does the ratcatcher do? Puts out a slow-acting poison, deliberately designed to be slow-acting so that not only do adult rats die slow, painful deaths, but also it gives them time to take the food home and feed it to the babies. With the side effect that they die at the bottom of their holes and not in places where their dead bodies would be inconvenient.

why don't the rats and mice get publicity? They are killed in their millions, not their hundreds. Six pages on this thread, and not a person is in favour of killing animals at all, let alone in such a cruel manner - can't a campaign be started to save the rats and mice?

Rats and mice spread disease. Mice, for instance, don’t have bladders, so spread urine everywhere they run. Still want them to have the run of your house?

 

[Creaky]

Why does fox hunting get all the attention? Let's think about rats and mice instead. There must be millions of people in this country (obviously not in this thread) who at the first sign of mice or rats in their house, would call out a ratcatcher. And what does the ratcatcher do? Puts out a slow-acting poison, deliberately designed to be slow-acting so that not only do adult rats die slow, painful deaths, but also it gives them time to take the food home and feed it to the babies. With the side effect that they die at the bottom of their holes and not in places where their dead bodies would be inconvenient.

why don't the rats and mice get publicity? They are killed in their millions, not their hundreds. Six pages on this thread, and not a person is in favour of killing animals at all, let alone in such a cruel manner - can't a campaign be started to save the rats and mice?

The answer is very simple - motive.

Fox hunting is carried out for fun - the idea that fox hunting is a pest control exercise is an excuse put forward by the hunting fraternity to try and justify their so called sport.

Billions of flies and other insects are killed annually but there is a world of difference between using insecticide and killing a spider by pulling its legs off for fun.

 

[Mr Putdown]

Rats and mice spread disease.

So do foxes.