[Music] Following on from the BBC censorship....

[Klaas]

The right wing activists making an issue of this do not give a hoot for the 'sanctity of art', they are simply trying to push their culture war agenda.

The whole post is excellent. This bit is particularly on the money.

 

[jonnyrovers]

Nick Cave was a bit over precious about this whole business. He overlooks that the song was worked upon and had different versions, some with different words, for over a year before they settled on the released version. He overlooks that songs were never set in aspic until recorded sound changed their most common delivery method in the last hundred years. He overlooks the fact that the version they are playing has not been doctored by the BBC, but was re-recorded by the artists for radio play in the same way that thousands of other songs have been. The compromise was made by the artist and its the same compromise that many many artists have had to consider whenever art and capitalism meet. A song having an outlaw spirit is all well and good, but it won't keep Shane in pints of Cinzano like radio play will.

I would politely suggest that it is actually you who may have overlooked context in considering this fuss. Yes, there is the narrow question of context in considering the intent of the use of language in the song not intending homophobia, but there is also the wider context of who is making the complaints and for what reasons. The right wing activists making an issue of this do not give a hoot for the 'sanctity of art', they are simply trying to push their culture war agenda. They will use the opinions of those, like Cave, who have an admirable and genuine concern for the rights of the artist, out of context to support the lie that the younger generation are weak and over-sensitive, simply because they find different things unacceptable in the wider public forum than do their parents. Those who are pretending to defend the interests of art in this case are coming from exactly the same political place as those who campaigned for the banning of Dennis Potter plays in the eighties and Jerry Springer the Opera in the nineties. The intent is not to free us all to celebrate artistic endeavor, it is to tell the generation below them that their opinions are wrong and that things should always be like they were back in the day.

There are a multitude of motives for defending the original version of this song. You've referenced a couple of them. Right wing activism is certainly not where I am coming from. I have two intentions. The first is absolutely to free us all to celebrate artistic endeavour, and the second is to support freedom of expression and speech for all by ensuring that those listening, watching, consuming, are capable of understanding and processing the information in a meaningful and useful way.

I have to say that the many young people I encounter in my life are not weak and over sensitive, but full of piss and vinegar and eager to get on in this messed up world. It's middle aged do gooders making proxy decisions that will be the undoing of our youth.

 

[Stato]

There are a multitude of motives for defending the original version of this song. You've referenced a couple of them. Right wing activism is certainly not where I am coming from. I have two intentions. The first is absolutely to free us all to celebrate artistic endeavour, and the second is to support freedom of expression and speech for all by ensuring that those listening, watching, consuming, are capable of understanding and processing the information in a meaningful and useful way.

I have to say that the many young people I encounter in my life are not weak and over sensitive, but full of piss and vinegar and eager to get on in this messed up world. It's middle aged do gooders making proxy decisions that will be the undoing of our youth.

I'd be completely with you on the aim of your first point, but feel that there are far more important battles to be fought than whether the Pogues choose to record a cleaned up version and whether Radio One decide to play it. The fact that so many artists and venues have not been eligible for Covid Financial Support Schemes seems the most immediate and pressing.

This makes me sound very old, but I would have said the same thing back in my youth: Radio One daytime shows have very little connection with artistic endeavour. If the evening ones are playing 30 year old Christmas songs, I'd question whether they are serving their audience properly.

On the second point, I feel there is a big blurry line between freedom of expression and the need for censorship. The fragmentation of the mass audience has led to different silos with different values and priorities and different opinions about where the protection of freedom should end and censorship should begin. The BBC's approach on this issue has been a fairly considered one that has recognised the differing demands of multiple service users. They will get criticism from both those who want the song unaltered and from those who believe that it should be censored. Both sides represent views held by some license payers and, needing to serve both, the corporation came up with a very BBC compromise that tries to give a little to everyone.

The underlying political attack being made is not on the Pogues' freedom, nor on any of the different audiences, but on the poor old BBC. That's generally what is at the bottom of all of these frenzies. Like democracy, the BBC has the impossible job of keeping everyone happy, but is overall still valued by the majority. In recent times there has been a concerted aim by the critics of both to denigrate and devalue in an attempt to alter this majority view, and to reduce and divide opposition to their eventual destruction.

 

[jonnyrovers]

I'd be completely with you on the aim of your first point, but feel that there are far more important battles to be fought than whether the Pogues choose to record a cleaned up version and whether Radio One decide to play it. The fact that so many artists and venues have not been eligible for Covid Financial Support Schemes seems the most immediate and pressing.

This makes me sound very old, but I would have said the same thing back in my youth: Radio One daytime shows have very little connection with artistic endeavour. If the evening ones are playing 30 year old Christmas songs, I'd question whether they are serving their audience properly.

On the second point, I feel there is a big blurry line between freedom of expression and the need for censorship. The fragmentation of the mass audience has led to different silos with different values and priorities and different opinions about where the protection of freedom should end and censorship should begin. The BBC's approach on this issue has been a fairly considered one that has recognised the differing demands of multiple service users. They will get criticism from both those who want the song unaltered and from those who believe that it should be censored. Both sides represent views held by some license payers and, needing to serve both, the corporation came up with a very BBC compromise that tries to give a little to everyone.

The underlying political attack being made is not on the Pogues' freedom, nor on any of the different audiences, but on the poor old BBC. That's generally what is at the bottom of all of these frenzies. Like democracy, the BBC has the impossible job of keeping everyone happy, but is overall still valued by the majority. In recent times there has been a concerted aim by the critics of both to denigrate and devalue in an attempt to alter this majority view, and to reduce and divide opposition to their eventual destruction.

I wish I were capable of so clearly presenting such a balanced view.

Your point on the fragmentation of the mass audience reflects the wider polarisation within society. Nobody debates, no-one has their mind open to the possibility it might change, or that their view might soften, or that they might at least reflect upon their position after a reasonable challenge has been properly heard. I've done a little bit of that since reading your posts.

 

[stewart12]

It's clear from your words that you care nothing for the sanctity of art, and are incapable of understanding that context is everything. I can name hundreds of songs containing challenging themes, you've used Eminem as an example. Young people should know that blokes kill their pregnant wives. It prepares them for life. The alternative is that we get a generation of protected pansies like you.

lol ok my friend, whatever you say

no need to be a prick about it

 

[dejavuatbtn]

I think it is possibly the worst Christmas record ever and I could never understand why the record is associated with it. Maybe it’s because I don’t understand a single thing they’re singing about.

 

[rogersix]

Couldn’t be more wrong.

you?

 

[jonnyrovers]

lol ok my friend, whatever you say

no need to be a prick about it

Ah no counter point, just an insult.

Speaks volumes