Fly your flag if you dare!

[JC Footy Genius]

Why do Brexiters seem to think they are the only patriotic ones?

That's rather a sweeping generalisation,which Brexiters?

 

[Grombleton]

What i've learned is that the Brexit side just seem to be more vocal - which unfortunately they seem to also confuse with being right.

I wonder what will happen after the 23rd - regardless of the result will the losing side complain, riot, or just get on with things?

 

[The Clamp]

So if Labor let all the foreigners in, why would Brexit stop that happening?

 

[drew]

That's rather a sweeping generalisation,which Brexiters?

Agree it was sweeping and apologies. However it does seem there are a number of Brexiteers who question the Remain's patriotism, DR being chief amongst them!!!

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Do I think career politicians are the right people to make this decision? Nope.
Do I think the general electorate are too ill informed to vote on such an important matter? Yep.
How else would I do it? I'd get a panel together of experts and genius's in all areas and let them decide.

Great idea, how open would that be to corruption in a multi billion pound operation.

 

[GreersElbow]

I imagine you know very well that the number of laws originating from Europe is variable depending on the way the law is recorded. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care less about the percentage, it should be a big fat ZERO.

We knew full well what we were signing up to when we joined the EEC and no one can deny that, it was well known the ambition was a unified Europe, however, anyone to think that will happen any time soon is misguided. Why should it be a big fat 0? We surrender SOME competencies in return for access to a trade bloc, that's how agreements work. Compromises.

As for the trade, important though it is, our trade with the EU has been decreasing and therefore it is an overstated fact by remainers.

Most remainers highlight that our trade with the EU is less than 50%.... that therefore defeats the 'Brexit' argument of 'more trade with the rest of world', what is important is to emphasise access to a single market with 430 million potential customers. So why is this emphasis on trade deals with 'rest of the world' so central to the Brexit argument? It doesn't stack up. Much like most of their statements.

Why do you suppose that just because someone backs exit that they don't support the Scottish right for independence?

Because a very large argument of the Brexit campaign is 'British Sovereignty', not English or Welsh sovereignty.

Are you stereotyping?

See above, you're trying to twist what I say to suit your argument.

The Scottish people voted in a similar referendum and viewed overwhelmingly to remain part of the UK, which keeps the status quo of a couple of hundred years.

I think this is a very, very confused counter-point, I don't think you even know what your point is in this. Re-read it again and read how silly it sounds.

One can't compare that with the EU which in its current format has been around for only a few years, which incidentally, we in the UK have never been asked about.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

Um, yes we were. The Treaty of Rome laid out the ambitions of the EEC, the author of the EEC was a well known European Federalist, not to mention Robert Schuman. The later Maastricht Treaty just later rolled out the institutional changes and laid out the path towards monetary union, which was an ambition well documented from the Treaty of Rome negotiations.

 

[Mowgli37]

What i've learned is that the Brexit side just seem to be more vocal - which unfortunately they seem to also confuse with being right.

I wonder what will happen after the 23rd - regardless of the result will the losing side complain, riot, or just get on with things?

I'm detecting a shy tory element amongst the remain camp (as much as that pains me to say as a labour voter ).

The polls are tight at the moment but I feel that the final margin between the two choices will surprise everyone.

 

[heathgate]

"Over 3 million jobs are linked to our trade with the EU." The economist from whose work this figure was taken, Dr Martin Weale, has said: "In many years of academic research, I cannot recall such a wilful distortion of the facts."

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[heathgate]

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-e4af-Beast-of-Bolsover-Im-voting-out#.V1yqxW3TXqD

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[Green Cross Code Man]

We knew full well what we were signing up to when we joined the EEC and no one can deny that, it was well known the ambition was a unified Europe, however, anyone to think that will happen any time soon is misguided. Why should it be a big fat 0? We surrender SOME competencies in return for access to a trade bloc, that's how agreements work. Compromises.

Most remainers highlight that our trade with the EU is less than 50%.... that therefore defeats the 'Brexit' argument of 'more trade with the rest of world', what is important is to emphasise access to a single market with 430 million potential customers. So why is this emphasis on trade deals with 'rest of the world' so central to the Brexit argument? It doesn't stack up. Much like most of their statements.


Because a very large argument of the Brexit campaign is 'British Sovereignty', not English or Welsh sovereignty.
See above, you're trying to twist what I say to suit your argument.

I think this is a very, very confused counter-point, I don't think you even know what your point is in this. Re-read it again and read how silly it sounds.



Um, yes we were. The Treaty of Rome laid out the ambitions of the EEC, the author of the EEC was a well known European Federalist, not to mention Robert Schuman. The later Maastricht Treaty just later rolled out the institutional changes and laid out the path towards monetary union, which was an ambition well documented from the Treaty of Rome negotiations.

1. We did NOT know full well that we were signing up to a united Europe etc when we joined the common market.

2. The EU is a diminishing market which has contracted over the last 15 years. Therefore one doesn't have to be Einstein to appreciate that it is of smaller and smaller overall relevance.

3. For me, and I suppose a lot of other people backing exit, I value British sovereignty. I think that we should make our own laws and not be ruled by unelected MEP's from other countries. I also believe that should the Scottish or Welsh or Northern Irish wish to become independent, that they should be allowed to do so. These views do not in any manner conflict and to suggest they do or that the argument is unclear is specious.

4. And no, no we weren't ever asked. We last voted on the 70's. Since then every government has denied us the opportunity to vote about further integration and enlargement of the common market. Why in heavens name you say that we have at any time since then been asked is beyond me. My assumption would be that you find the truth about the EU's lack of democratic accountability uncomfortable.

Sent from the boot of Lingard

 

[heathgate]

According to the FT, European leaders are preparing "first statements to reassure markets" in the event of Brexit. So, for weeks they have been predicting Armageddon and then on the 24th they're going to say, "Only kidding!" Just ridiculous. And we're expected to entrust our future to these people?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[heathgate]

This is how the eu works for uk jobs, industries and economy, ask the undecideds to remember this when voting.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[sydney]

This is how the eu works for uk jobs, industries and economy, ask the undecideds to remember this when voting.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

talk about conversation killer......

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Thought this was in keeping with the tone of the thread

 

[graz126]

I DO believe brexit supporters are ignorant if the facts and consequences of leaving the EU. That's why I'm voting to stay in.

and I believe remain supporters are being brainwashed from every angle. I see even the bbc is a propaganda remain campaign now. why do all remain supporters think leave supporters are only wanting to leave because of immigration/race etc. not saying am right but certainly aint a bigot and want out. and I certainly aint ignorant of the facts. I just choose a different option than you.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I'm SO delighted I have the phenomenal ability to make my mind up without the need to get involved in "DEBATE".

The amount of conversations I've had that go:

Man: "So, what do you reckon bout Europe?"
Me: I'm voting remain. I've read up about it and that's the decision I've come to.
Man: Yeah, but thing is, we need to leave because....
Me: Let me stop you there. I've decided. You literally cant change my opinion
Man: But yeah, thing is, we need to ....
Me: Stop

You have it on here. People arguing with each other but neither will EVER change their opinion.....so why bother. Campaign to someone who is undecided if you are THAT desperate to convince someone.

 

[LlcoolJ]

According to the FT, European leaders are preparing "first statements to reassure markets" in the event of Brexit. So, for weeks they have been predicting Armageddon and then on the 24th they're going to say, "Only kidding!" Just ridiculous. And we're expected to entrust our future to these people?

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Not commenting on whether they are right or wrong but they are saying this because that's how "the markets" work. It's all about confidence and without it they tank, regardless of facts.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

This is how the eu works for uk jobs, industries and economy, ask the undecideds to remember this when voting.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
.....

I might be missing something but how would any of these be different if we were in or out of the EU. The companies are getting grants to move operations etc but surely they could do that just as easily if we weren't in the EU?

 

[boik]

I think that we should make our own laws and not be ruled by unelected MEP's from other countries.

I'm pretty sure there aren't ANY unelected MEP's, but carry on.

 

[Notters]

I'd change my avatar to fly my flag - it's The Union Flag as pictured below, but as I'm voting to 'remain' in The European Union and The United Kingdom it might be confusing to some.................

View attachment 75634

Well said. A worryingly large number of Brexiters are pushing the idea that you can't be pro-Britain/England if you're pro European.