Fireworks men jailed

[markw]

Two local firefighters died, this thread needs deleting asap.

 

[¤DãŃn¥ §êãGüLL¤]

Burn them!

 

[patchamalbion]

remember two men with families were killed doing their job guys. In brief it was in dec 2006,a fire broke out at alpha fireworks,soon got worse.Both dad and son wernt helpful at all,the son was arrested for kicking off but he was attemtping to explain that there was a serious chance of a huge explosion..then bang,an explosion of epic proportions,killing two and injuring 20.

prosecution said dad and son were negligent for knowingly having dagerous fireworks in a metal container than if lit could reasonably explode.

defence said east sussex fire didnt make the correct checkes when carrying out inquiries and on the night made wrong decisions.

 

[beorhthelm]

oh that incident (was wondering how many would get on their high horse without actually explaining).

i dont get it, if the place was checked and deemed ok, how come they are negligent? (or was that part of the defense not true?)

 

[patchamalbion]

oh that incident (was wondering how many would get on their high horse without actually explaining).

i dont get it, if the place was checked and deemed ok, how come they are negligent? (or was that part of the defense not true?)

they hid various fireworks that would have been taken from them due to being illegal in the UK and did not show them to the fire department,they also placed them in a metal container which would make any explosion worse. fire department didn't make thurough enough checks in looking for hidden(purposely or not) dangers.
its a tough one,no winners,two men have been killed and they both leave families,sussex fire department have come under scrutiny and indeed,criticism and two men have been jailed for 5 and 7 years.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I wonder where the court case against the chief officers who were handling the response to this incident will be, they are as much to blame for the tragic deaths of those two people in my opinion, if not more so. - I wonder if this was even concidered or whether because they are emergency services, being investigated by emergency services that they closed ranks and refuse to accept any of the blame for the tragic events that they could have avoided if it had been handled correctly.

They got their response wrong to the incident. The whole handling of the situation was a shambles, they failed to follow the plan they had for dealing with such an event, (if they even had one) surely an eventuality they must have planned for as they were aware of what the site was for many years. They are the ones who endangered lives unnessessarily imo.

Can someone please tell me why a civilian was allowed to film so close to a store of explosives (after all, thats what fireworks are) If he hadn't been an ex-fireman, he wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the site, or if that person had worked for a private company, their bosses would have been on trial too.

Or how about why there was a failure to establsh a proper cordon of the area, thus preventing other civilians from wondering across fields and becoming injured, guidelines state that you establish a 600yard cordon and leave it to burn, especially as there was no immediate threat to life.

There had been previous instances of fires at fireworks depots like this (it is not a factory) in this country and abroad, so the lessons were out there already in how to deal with this type of incident.

This whole thing stinks to me and I hope they win any appeal.

 

[beorhthelm]

seems a technicallity, its not like no one knew they had fireworks there in metal containers. i went there to buy display grade stuff in the early 90's, wasn't a secret place, just drove in. mind you, probably werent allowed to be selling them (i recall only funds prevented me buying 10" mortars), so i dont for a minute think they werent dodgy.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

According to the news I just watched, one of the defendants told the firemen that the metal container was full of wood, when in fact it was filled with fireworks stored illegally. If you watch the video you see firefighters strolling past the container; no way would they have done that if they had known what was inside.

And I suspect that they wouldn't have done that if they didn't think they knew what was inside. If they hadn't been told it was wood they would have taken no chances, and assumed it was potentially dangerous.

If I've got that right and they were told it was wood when the owners knew it was fireworks then IMHO the owners deserve everything day of the sentences they received.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I wonder where the court case against the chief officers who were handling the response to this incident will be, they are as much to blame for the tragic deaths of those two people in my opinion, if not more so. - I wonder if this was even concidered or whether because they are emergency services, being investigated by emergency services that they closed ranks and refuse to accept any of the blame for the tragic events that they could have avoided if it had been handled correctly.

They got their response wrong to the incident. The whole handling of the situation was a shambles, they failed to follow the plan they had for dealing with such an event, (if they even had one) surely an eventuality they must have planned for as they were aware of what the site was for many years. They are the ones who endangered lives unnessessarily imo.

Can someone please tell me why a civilian was allowed to film so close to a store of explosives (after all, thats what fireworks are) If he hadn't been an ex-fireman, he wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the site, or if that person had worked for a private company, their bosses would have been on trial too.

Or how about why there was a failure to establsh a proper cordon of the area, thus preventing other civilians from wondering across fields and becoming injured, guidelines state that you establish a 600yard cordon and leave it to burn, especially as there was no immediate threat to life.

There had been previous instances of fires at fireworks depots like this (it is not a factory) in this country and abroad, so the lessons were out there already in how to deal with this type of incident.

This whole thing stinks to me and I hope they win any appeal.

No idea what official fire brigade procedures state, but would have assumed that they include ensuring the area is safe before allowing support staff in to take photographs.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

According to the news I just watched, one of the defendants told the firemen that the metal container was full of wood, when in fact it was filled with fireworks stored illegally. If you watch the video you see firefighters strolling past the container; no way would they have done that if they had known what was inside.

And I suspect that they wouldn't have done that if they didn't think they knew what was inside. If they hadn't been told it was wood they would have taken no chances, and assumed it was potentially dangerous.

If I've got that right and they were told it was wood when the owners knew it was fireworks then IMHO the owners deserve everything day of the sentences they received.

Quoting a couple of other peoples comments from another forum ( Lewes Forum )but comments that sum it up pretty well to me include these:

what i do find disturbing is those vile women who asbused children got the same sentence as the father

Ever heard the saying two wrongs dont make a right, just because 2 people died doesnt mean 2 people must go to prison. It doesnt make logical sense, the punishment is disproportionate to the crime committed. The £30,000 fine which they also have would have been more than sufficient for the 'crime' they committed!

As a result of the guilty verdicts, the winter's cant claim on insurance for the buildings damaged (business and home), costing them I should imagine in the region of £1million. This I would have thought would be punishment enough for anybody who put the wrong thing in the wrong box but the british legal system doesnt recognise that they have already been sufficiently punished for their error. No need for a lenghty sentence, I hope they get out in a years time

Pretty shocked at the sentences, especially Nathan (who was not a Director of the company at the time), although I don't know what the minimum term for Manslaughter is.
There should be an inquest into the actions of the fire brigade on the day of the incident. There's fire brigade video on the Argus website showing just how close they were to storage containers and sheds, despite knowing what they were dealing with. Not sensible.

A friend of mine's sister was murdered by her husband and he got 5 years for premeditated murder. He was in lewes prison for a total of 2 years because of good behaviour. How can Martin and Nathans tragic accident be given a longer sentence than murder. The legal system totally stinks!!!!!!!

This sentence is unbelievable and totally wrong. They would likely of got the same sentence if they had broken into the fireman's houses and killed them with their bear hands.
The video shows clearly how all procedure for dealing with such fires was ignored on the day, the Fire Brigade bosses should be prosecuted for gross negligence. If the correct procedures had been followed then the firemen would be alive and the Winters would be free.
I simply despair at the verdict and sentence.

I'm horrified. I used to work in criminal law and worked on a trial where people only got 8 years after torturing an 18 year old man in the course of a robbery and finally stabbing him to death. The other murder case I worked on ended up in a 5 year sentence for manslaughter, that was a stabbing in a fight.
I hope they appeal. I can't believe these sentences are reasonable.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

No idea what official fire brigade procedures state, but would have assumed that they include ensuring the area is safe before allowing support staff in to take photographs.

You would have thought so, but because they didn't, and it resulted in death.

They admitted that they didn't follow procedures, also they had new guidelines issued in 2005 but failed to take any notice of them.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

I have no idea how criminally badly the company was run, but how can an ACCIDENT carry those sort of penalties??

We live in a blame society. I know thats easy to say as a non-victim, but I genuinely believe that.

 

[Zamora For England]

I used to work closely with Geoff Wicker's brother.

I cannot understand how this has been treated as a joke by some members of the board.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

According to the news I just watched, one of the defendants told the firemen that the metal container was full of wood, when in fact it was filled with fireworks stored illegally. If you watch the video you see firefighters strolling past the container; no way would they have done that if they had known what was inside.

And I suspect that they wouldn't have done that if they didn't think they knew what was inside. If they hadn't been told it was wood they would have taken no chances, and assumed it was potentially dangerous.

If I've got that right and they were told it was wood when the owners knew it was fireworks then IMHO the owners deserve everything day of the sentences they received.

Quoting from the Argus

Questions were asked, however, about the role of the fire service after they received the first call to Marlie Farm at 1.45pm, and whether procedures had been correctly followed.

Defence counsel Mukul Chawla QC said if the firefighters had followed their own processes, neither Mr Wembridge nor Mr Wicker would have been near the container when it exploded.

He said that "for whatever reason" it appeared the firefighters had not been provided with any training or had their attention brought to the Health and Safety Executive's Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations.

The regulations state that if a fire is established and involves explosives or threatens to spread them, to evacuate to a distance of 600m, Mr Chawla said. But he added that this was not followed.

During his evidence, Nathan Winter, who was aged 22 at the time, said he stressed the importance for firefighters to keep flames away from the container.

It was suggested that because of his age, the advice was ignored. He told the jury he felt one officer believed he was not in a position to tell him how to do his job.

As Nathan Winter pressed the issue on the site, he was arrested and led off by police before being released. He told a police officer that fire officers were "not listening to him and they needed to pull out".

The video on the site clearly shows the firefighters close to the blaze 44 minutes after being called and that it was obvious from the start that the fire was beyond their ability to control, had they withfrawn at any time during those minutes, then both of those killed would still be alive. - How is that the fault of the Winters if the authorities failed to act properly to the situation?

It was said in court as evidence against them that the exploding storage container sent fragments upto 400 metres, so if they were the 600 metres that they should have been no one would have been injured or killed.

Nathan told the authorities to withdaw from the area, but was ignored and yet he gets sentanced to 5 years - how is that any form of justice?

Basically it means that the authorities can put the lives of their staff at unacceptable risk and if it goes wrong and someone dies as a result of there actions, they can pass the buck and don't have to face the consequences, putting other victims (as the Winters were also victims of this) on trial for their (authorities) mistakes.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

My main point was that if I remember correctly from the news on TV - and if that news was correct - one of the defendants told the fire people that the container was full of wood when he knew it was full of fireworks stored illegally.

If this is true, then it's criminal. And manslaughter.

 

[Lewesian Seagull]

My main point was that if I remember correctly from the news on TV - and if that news was correct - one of the defendants told the fire people that the container was full of wood when he knew it was full of fireworks stored illegally.

If this is true, then it's criminal. And manslaughter.

Martin apparently told the fire brigade it was full of wood, but after that, Nathan told them it was full of fireworks. The fire people chose to ignore him.
If the fire brigade had followed his advice and their own guidelines this whole tragic incident could have been avoided.

Yes the Winters were guilty of certain offences that day, but they shouldn't have been the only people in the dock.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Martin apparently told the fire brigade it was full of wood, but after that, Nathan told them it was full of fireworks. The fire people chose to ignore him.
If the fire brigade had followed his advice and their own guidelines this whole tragic incident could have been avoided.

Yes the Winters were guilty of certain offences that day, but they shouldn't have been the only people in the dock.

So let me get this straight, illegally stored fireworks exploded and killed two people. Originally fire brigade were told that the metal locker was full of wood and then sometime later were told that it wasn't. For whatever reason they didn't investigate, propbaly because they didn't trust the bloke who was giving them the run around. It exploded ....
... which obviously means that it was fire services fault and not the owners of the site

Bottom line, you f**k around with explosives at your peril, if you flaunt the rules you deserve to be penalised. The fireworks shouldn't have been in the metal locker in the first place and if you run such a facility you would know this .... now that is CRIMINAL

 

[Arthur]

Can someone please tell me why a civilian was allowed to film so close to a store of explosives (after all, thats what fireworks are) If he hadn't been an ex-fireman, he wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the site, or if that person had worked for a private company, their bosses would have been on trial too.

He wasn't a civilian though. He was an ex firefighter who shot video/took photos for the brigade for training purposes.

Can't believe people are still cracking jokes about this (not aimed at you GF), as I pointed out previously the son of one of the fire fighters killed is an Albion fan. If someone cracked a joke about 9/11 the REMF lot would have you kicked off the board within a second and rightly so.

 

[cunning fergus]

Whether you agree with the penalties or not, I think it would be useful if we could apply the principal of corporate manslaughter etc. to the public office, that might make Home Office Ministers, Judges, Parole Boards, Probation Service, Ayslum Tribunals et al think twice before they act.

The case of Mark Shirley down in Bristol is a prime example of where people should be held accountable.

 

[Trufflehound]

Can't believe people are still cracking jokes about this (not aimed at you GF), as I pointed out previously the son of one of the fire fighters killed is an Albion fan. If someone cracked a joke about 9/11 the REMF lot would have you kicked off the board within a second and rightly so.

It doesn't seem to me that people are still cracking jokes. Once the facts became known on this thread, we stopped.

I can only speak for myself, but as one of the guilty parties to whom you are referring, I (and I suspect the others too) was ribbing the incoherence of the original post, latching onto its mention of fireworks without any context. I don't think it was anyone's deliberate intention to cause offence, or to belittle the memory of the deceased. I suspect had the facts been made clearer in the original post, no one would have responded in the way they did.

Sorry if you feel affronted, but I for one had no idea about the story or that it involved anyone's death, Albion fan or not. I don't live locally, haven't done for many years, and I know nothing about "local" Sussex news beyond the football team I love.