[TV] Finding Jackie Charlton

[Cheshire Cat]

It was a hard programme to watch, especially as Mrs Cat has early onset dementia.

What it didn't show, unless I missed it, is the unpredictable mood changes that dementia sufferers can have. One second everything is (relatively) reasonable. Next second there is a major aggressive violent tantrum. It is impossible to predict or anticipate what can spark it off.

 

[Vicar!]

Magnificent piece of television. A tear in the eye at the end. I was lucky enough to be at Italia 90. It took me six hours to walk to the station after the Genoa game. Every bar en route. A wonderful summer. Just got home for my lads birth. Wife none to pleased. But seriously Jack was such a character. The team got back to the hotel in Malta after qualifying, Jack was there to meet them. ‘Where do you think your going’ He sent them back into town to join the party, bravely few refused.

 

[portlock seagull]

You weren’t to know from the way the show was marketed. Dementia is football’s dirty secret shamefully.

Is it? Yes there’s a link to dementia but there are so many other contributing factors it’s almost impossible to pin on one thing so it’s a bit tabloid to sensationalise like that. These players are generally old. Lived longer than expected. Just like the rest of population, many more will die of in short. We’re facing an unprecedented number of people reaching older ages than ever before. In poor but manageable health. First time in human history. Science is winning, but are we?

And before anyone jumps on my case in response about not caring or not knowing much about this god damned disease, I’m living with it daily like many others do inc several I know on here. I’ve also cared for. As have other family members. So woe betide anyone who accuses me of that. I won’t tolerate. Fine to have a different opinion of course, I wouldn’t consider myself an expert by any means, but knowing how NSC can be when it comes to health topics and people assuming (wrongly!)

 

[El Presidente]

Is it? Yes there’s a link to dementia but there are so many other contributing factors it’s almost impossible to pin on one thing so it’s a bit tabloid to sensationalise like that. These players are generally old. Lived longer than expected. Just like the rest of population, many more will die of in short. We’re facing an unprecedented number of people reaching older ages than ever before. In poor but manageable health. First time in human history. Science is winning, but are we?

And before anyone jumps on my case in response about not caring or not knowing much about this god damned disease, I’m living with it daily like many others do inc several I know on here. I’ve also cared for. As have other family members. So woe betide anyone who accuses me of that. I won’t tolerate. Fine to have a different opinion of course, I wouldn’t consider myself an expert by any means, but knowing how NSC can be when it comes to health topics and people assuming (wrongly!)

The statistical analysis is that an ex professional footballer is 3.5x more likely to develop dementia than the general population.

Is that down to constant heading of the ball? IMO more research is needed, and it could be that in due course head trauma issues are ruled out and there could be other factors. The football industry does have the resources to spend money to find out why there is this high incidence, but there has been a reluctance to accelerate the research.

 

[Gun shot]

I never realised that Paul McGrath was brought up in an orphanage because he was born out of wedlock.

Different times

I'm still amazed that the BBC let Paul McGrath drop the n-word but then I was aware he'd had a very difficult life and maybe an insight into how he was treated. I read that he was/is painfully shy. Pure speculation. I just wonder how good he could have been without the demon drink. Tony Adams for Arsenal and England too.

 

[Blackadder]

I'm still amazed that the BBC let Paul McGrath drop the n-word but then I was aware he'd had a very difficult life and maybe an insight into how he was treated. I read that he was/is painfully shy. Pure speculation. I just wonder how good he could have been without the demon drink. Tony Adams for Arsenal and England too.

I have seen McGrath play. I think I am right in thinking that towards the end of his career he couldn't train because he was crippled with arthritis (or something similar). He was so highly regarded by his club sides, he still turned out for the first team, despite the pain he was in

 

[Gun shot]

I have seen McGrath play. I think I am right in thinking that towards the end of his career he couldn't train because he was crippled with arthritis (or something similar). He was so highly regarded by his club sides, he still turned out for the first team, despite the pain he was in

Manchester United in the late eighties and Aston Villa in the early nineties. I think Ron Atkinson was his manager at both clubs and rated him very highly. Villa won the League Cup and qualified for the UEFA Cup. An outstanding defender.

 

[Blue3]

Quite a tough program to watch but was taken with the dignity with which it was made Jacks family came across as lovely and supportive, dementia is a wicked disease I know from personal experience I have been told it's not an inherited disease but I have lost my Father, Grandmother, three uncles and two aunts ( one aunt actually died of Covid but had dementia) with another aunt and uncle currently suffering from its effects all 8 are the children of my grandmother plus my middle brother is they think in the early stages.

 

[DIFFBROOK]

I think it was brave of the BBC to keep the "n" word. Its all about context. That word is horrible and to hear a black player have to endure that is even more horrible. Hearing Paul say it emphasized the pain that he must have felt at a young age.

He was a top class player. I think he could have been one of the best midfielders/centre halfs in the world. He wasnt far off

I'm still amazed that the BBC let Paul McGrath drop the n-word but then I was aware he'd had a very difficult life and maybe an insight into how he was treated. I read that he was/is painfully shy. Pure speculation. I just wonder how good he could have been without the demon drink. Tony Adams for Arsenal and England too.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Manchester United in the late eighties and Aston Villa in the early nineties. I think Ron Atkinson was his manager at both clubs and rated him very highly. Villa won the League Cup and qualified for the UEFA Cup. An outstanding defender.

Still alive, too.

https://www.balls.ie/football/paul-mcgrath-4-448952

 

[stewart12]

Being of Northumbrian stock it was a special documentary for me. In fact my grandad was a miner in Ashington and would have at the very least known the Charlton's dad- probably worked with Jack when he briefly worked down the pit. Find it incredible how different the brothers are- Jack for me is like so many Northumbrian men from that generation- life is tough there especially in the mining communities and that hard exterior and straight talking attitude is very common there- as is a good sense of humour and humility. Despite his toughness he clearly had a big heart and a lot of the stuff with Paul McGrath was really heartwarming- he clearly loved him like a son.

I can see why Ireland took him to their hearts- I feel like the North East of England and the Ireland of that era shared a lot of similarities

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Being of Northumbrian stock it was a special documentary for me. In fact my grandad was a miner in Ashington and would have at the very least known the Charlton's dad- probably worked with Jack when he briefly worked down the pit. Find it incredible how different the brothers are- Jack for me is like so many Northumbrian men from that generation- life is tough there especially in the mining communities and that hard exterior and straight talking attitude is very common there- as is a good sense of humour and humility. Despite his toughness he clearly had a big heart and a lot of the stuff with Paul McGrath was really heartwarming- he clearly loved him like a son.

I can see why Ireland took him to their hearts- I feel like the North East of England and the Ireland of that era shared a lot of similarities

Without wishing to derail the thread, your comment instantly made me think of Prefab Sprout, from Witton Gilbert, Co. Durham, but whose singer was Paddy McAloon. For a long tme I assumed they were Irish.

 

[stewart12]

Without wishing to derail the thread, your comment instantly made me think of Prefab Sprout, from Witton Gilbert, Co. Durham, but whose singer was Paddy McAloon. For a long tme I assumed they were Irish.

there's certainly a lot of people of Irish descent in the North East- primarily in Sunderland and Newcastle I guess where they'd work on the docks. One of my best St Patrick's days was spend largely in the Tyneside Irish Centre which is a stones throw from St James' Park. My Nana's parents moved over from County Mayo and eventually settled in Gateshead before my Nana and Grandad moved to Northumberland when they got married.

 

[HOFNSKIN]

The Irish national team sponsors during this period of history no longer exist under the previous ownership. Modern day OPEL/VAUXHALL vehicles are CITROEN/PEUGEOT vehicles with opel/vauxhall badges on the rear. Jack Charlton and the sponsors both expired at roughly the same time.

 

[SeagullDubai]

I think you do need to factor in the difference in the balls today compared to 50-60 years ago. The heavy laced balls we used to play with at school, that got even heavier when the rain soaked its way in, are very different to the balls used today. Todays balls are like heading a feather duster rather than a medicine ball.

It is tragic that so many players are suffering dementia that has been attributed to heading the ball but they are players from a different era playing with a very different ball.

I hope somewhere somebody is doing the science to establish whether the new balls still create the same level of risk for todays players. If research shows the risk is exactly the same now as it was for those playing in the 1950s/60s then there would certainly be a case for looking at how the game is played.

I remember heading one of those balls and connecting with the laces area. Left an imprint on my forehead for hours afterwards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brovion]

Just got round to watching this and I must confess to being a little disappointed. It was very well done, but it was over-long and apart from the dementia it concentrated almost entirely on the ten years he spent as Ireland manager. Probably my mistake, but when I saw how long the programme was I was expecting more of a full retrospective of his career, if you didn't know any better you'd think he'd had a handful of games as Middlesborough manager and then got the Ireland job. (He was also the Sheff Wed Manager when we beat then at Highbury).

Seven out of ten.

 

[ManOfSussex]

One thing from the documentary that I'd forgotten was that Northern Ireland v Republic of Ireland game in 1993. It was the same night as San Marino scoring against England and Paul Bodin missing a penalty for Wales against Romania. A Google search brought this article up from 2012 that remembers a dramatic final night of World Cup qualifying across Europe and a decent piece on Ireland's group and the context of the game in Belfast.

Traversing the ring of ire
We’ve no idea where to start in Group Three, which was the epicentre of this epic night. Spain were to host Denmark in Seville, with Northern Ireland (long since out of the running) at home to the Republic in Belfast. The three sides could barely be split: Denmark were top with 18 points (goal difference +14, goals scored 15), a point ahead of Spain (17 points, goal difference +22, goals scored 26) and the Republic (17 points, goal difference +13, goals scored 18). A draw was enough for Denmark, while Spain and the Republic knew they had to win to ensure qualification but that they might get through with a draw (in Spain’s case, a draw was enough if the Republic failed to win; in the Republic’s case, a draw was enough if Spain and Denmark did not draw. The Republic were out if they lost; Spain were out if they lost unless the Republic also lost. Confused? Splendid.)

The intensity of the Ireland match was exacerbated by the political climate of the time. The Troubles were at their height, and a month earlier 23 people had died in a series of shootings and bombings. There was much talk of moving the game away from Belfast to Old Trafford, Wembley or even Italy. Eventually the game went ahead as planned, but the Republic, to Jack Charlton’s not inconsiderable chagrin, had to fly rather than drive for security reasons.

The mood wasn’t improved the day before the match when Billy Bingham – who was to retire after 17 years as Northern Ireland manager – laid into the Republic’s “mercenaries”. “They couldn’t find a way of making it with England or Scotland,” he said of players like Andy Townsend, Ray Houghton and John Aldridge. “I take a totally cynical view of the whole business. I am not prepared to skirt the issue, the same as I am happy to state it is our intention to stuff the Republic.” Ireland were given a taste of what was to come when they arrived for their last training session to be greeted by a group of 10- and 11-year-olds with erect middle fingers. When they arrived for the game, they found a ring of barbed wire and armed police.

If there was a ring of steel outside the ground, then there was a ring of ire inside it. This was a maelstrom of hate, the sort of night on which even the gangsters look over their shoulder. Officially at least, the Republic had no supporters in the ground. “I have never seen a more hostile atmosphere,” said Jack Charlton, “not even in Turkey.” Terry Phelan and Paul McGrath received monkey chants; Alan Kernaghan, who played for Northern Ireland at schoolboy level, was noisily called a “****ing Lundy”. And then there were the dogs, hundreds of them, or so it seemed, barking like they knew the apocalypse was coming. “The safest place to be,” said McLoughlin, “was on the pitch.”

There was another advantage to being on the pitch: you could control your side’s destiny. Spain’s legendary keeper Andoni Zubizaretta lost that privilege when he was sent off in the 10th minute against Denmark. Zubizaretta passed the ball feebly to his Barcelona team-mate Michael Laudrup and then took him out on the edge of the box. The substitute keeper was Cañizares, a 23-year-old who was making his international debut in a situation that was too much for a man making his 83rd appearance. Yet as he walked on to the pitch, Cañizares went into a zone that he arguably did not enter for the rest of his career.

With Denmark only needing a draw, they seemed to have nine toes in America. There was, however, one big catch: their opponents were Spain, the bogey side who had put the great Danish Dynamite side out of Euro 84 and Mexico 86, while also beating them at Euro 88. Against any other team Denmark would probably have regarded the red card as an almighty bonus. With it being Spain, however, they starting looking for booby traps, their subconscious probably wondering whether Zubizaretta’s red card was all part of a warped hextension. Add in the fact that Denmark were most comfortable on the counter-attack – an approach that served them so well during their fairytale win at Euro 92 – and you had a confused broth.

Denmark’s extra man meant they inevitably controlled the first half, and created a couple of very good chances, but theirs was a kind of sterile domination, the result of an aggressive-passive approach. And with every Cañizares save, an intoxicating cocktail of destiny and fatalism became ever more Spanish in flavour.

It was also goalless in Belfast after a largely witless first half in which the Republic were comfortable but not incisive. (“The match,” said Ken Jones in the Independent, “never rose above the level of perspiring mediocrity.”) At that stage the Republic were going out, but the group changed when Spain took the lead in the 63rd minute. A corner from the right was driven beyond the far post, José Maria Bakero baulked Peter Schmeichel, and Fernando Hierro headed into the vacant net. Schmeichel was furious, and with good reason. “Of course it was a foul,” said Bakero years later. It was only the second goal Denmark had conceded in 10 qualifying games. “In my eyes it seemed like the referee regretted sending off Zubizaretta and started to give the Spanish a few favours,” said Schmeichel after the match.

Denmark pressed, but Spain drew strength from a raucous atmosphere at an intimidating venue where they played every qualifier between 1983 and 1995. At that stage Denmark were going out, but the ‘as it stands’ table changed again when, out of nothing, Jimmy Quinn scored a stunning volley for Northern Ireland in the 71st minute. Jimmy Nicholl, the Northern Ireland No2, celebrated with an up yours gesture at his Republic counterpart Maurice Setters.

With the Republic now needing a goal, Jack Charlton turned to Tony Cascarino. There was one problem: Cascarino, for the only time in his career, had forgotten to put his kit on. When Cascarino unzipped his tracksuit top, all he saw was a plain cotton T-shirt. When Charlton asked what was keeping him, Cascarino informed him of the slight impediment to his introduction. “His face turned purple,” said Cascarino. “I thought he was going to have a heart attack. ‘You fucccccking idiot!’” As with Gualtieri’s goal, this was stratospheric farce.

There was no time for this story to play out to its conclusion, because in the 76th minute the substitute McLoughlin brought the Republic level with a fine goal, chesting down a half-cleared free-kick and ramming it into the corner. An exhausted Charlton later said that McLoughlin had “justified his existence”. He was also in Cascarino’s good books for the rest of his days. “I have always believed,” said Cascarino, “that, had Alan McLoughlin not equalised … there’s a fair chance Jack would have chinned me.”

The Republic pushed for a different kind of knockout blow, knowing they were out if Denmark equalised in Seville. Cañizares made an unbelievable save from Bent Christensen (although this video suggests a foul had been given for a push by Christensen), and then Michael Laudrup drilled a long-range half-volley just wide.

When the final whistle went in Belfast, the Republic celebrated in the mistaken belief that it was over in Seville and that they had qualified. Charlton thought the same as he walked down the tunnel, only to see a TV showing the last rites of Spain v Denmark. “The guy asked if I wanted it to watch it,” said Charlton. “’Do I bollocks,’ I said. Then he touched me on the shoulder and said: ‘Now will you look?’ And I did, and it had finished 1-0.” The Republic and Denmark were level on points and goal difference. The Republic, who scored four goals in nine games at the World Cup under Charlton, were through by virtue of scoring more goals.

In the feverish aftermath, Charlton decided to score a point. “I spotted Billy [Bingham] talking among his players and moved in his direction to congratulate him on his retirement and compliment him on a good game,” he said in his autobiography. “At least that was my intention. Instead, in a moment I still find difficult to understand, I pointed a finger at him and blurted ‘Up yours too, Billy.’”

Charlton regretted the words instantly, not least because it hadn’t been Bingham who gestured at Setters in the first place, and apologised shortly after. A surreal night ended with Charlton presenting Bingham with an award to mark his retirement. “Some of the people who’d been abusing me all evening are stood there cheering. I think that said it all about a crazy, noisy night.”

There was no warm, fuzzy ending in Seville. “When the final whistle blew,” said the Denmark striker Flemming Povlsen, “I cried with an anger every bit as intense as the joy I’d felt the year before on winning the European Championship.” This headline – which simply said ‘ROBBERY’ – summed up Denmark’s feelings. For the first time in 16 years, the European champions had failed to qualify for the World Cup.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/feb/15/forgotten-story-17-november-1993

 

[Eggman]

One thing from the documentary that I'd forgotten was that Northern Ireland v Republic of Ireland game in 1993. It was the same night as San Marino scoring against England and Paul Bodin missing a penalty for Wales against Romania. A Google search brought this article up from 2012 that remembers a dramatic final night of World Cup qualifying across Europe and a decent piece on Ireland's group and the context of the game in Belfast.



https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/feb/15/forgotten-story-17-november-1993

Great read

 

[1066familyman]

Just got round to watching this and I must confess to being a little disappointed. It was very well done, but it was over-long and apart from the dementia it concentrated almost entirely on the ten years he spent as Ireland manager. Probably my mistake, but when I saw how long the programme was I was expecting more of a full retrospective of his career, if you didn't know any better you'd think he'd had a handful of games as Middlesborough manager and then got the Ireland job. (He was also the Sheff Wed Manager when we beat then at Highbury).

Seven out of ten.

I get exactly what you're saying.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect any programme about Jack Charlton to include plenty about 1966 and the World Cup win. That's massive in our history. But in those countless stories, he'll always be in the shadow of his brother, rightly or wrongly.

He was also a massive part of THAT Leeds team. Again, a very significant part of English football history. But again, that story has been told, and arguably had much bigger characters in it too. Although he still holds the club record for appearances I think.

Jack Charlton's time as The Republic of Ireland manager however, was big at the time, but it seems even more momentous now on looking back. It says a lot about him as a man, and just how influential that period of success was in shaping the political and cultural landscape of Ireland.

Concentrating on that intense period of his career, so full of powerful memories, juxtaposed with his Alzheimer's, told a story all of it's own I think. And a very powerful one at that.

So yes, if you were hoping for a retrospective of his footballing career, it missed by a mile. I totally agree.
But in telling it's own story, for me, the programme was simply brilliant.

 

[A mex eyecan]

Superbly produced and very moving. For anyone who’s had a loved one with dementia it would have been distressing too.

Why his brother has a knighthood and Jack didn’t is both a mystery and a disgrace.

thought it sad that there was such disharmony between two brothers.