FFP and our out of contract players

[Brighton Breezy]

Fairly sure if we don't get promoted Tomasz Kuszczak won't be here next season.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

The general consensus from those ITK on here is that Barnes is on comfortably more money at Burnley than he was here.

Yep.

COMFORTABLY.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

:

! Gradually getting there as Martin told you Saturday.

Martin denied he is your son on Saturday

 

[Westdene Seagull]

And it never ceases to amaze me how people over-estimate how much we pay. I'm afraid your figures are massively flawed. First of all, we pay more than 25 players in a season. Secondly, that figure includes signing on and agent fees as well as wages. Thirdly, the 14m figure is for ALL staff - 450 P/T staff, 80-100 back office staff, the academy staff, the coaches & manager, the directors as well as the players.

Indeed. There is far more to the cost of employing someone than their salary - employers NI and pension contributions for starters. Taking £14m and just dividing it by the number of players in the squad is going to give a widely inaccurate figure for players pay. There's half a million just for the Directors to account for as well.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

And it never ceases to amaze me how people over-estimate how much we pay. I'm afraid your figures are massively flawed. First of all, we pay more than 25 players in a season. Secondly, that figure includes signing on and agent fees as well as wages. Thirdly, the 14m figure is for ALL staff - 450 P/T staff, 80-100 back office staff, the academy staff, the coaches & manager, the directors as well as the players.

20k a week is 1m a year. You think Orlandi is on 20k? Well if that's true then so are CMS, Ulloa, Greer, Upson, Kuszczak, Crofts and Bruno, AT LEAST. That's another 7 players who are, by your logic, on 1m a year. That's £8m on 8 players. Suddenly 14m doesn't go quite so far to pay the rest does it? Our average was by my maths probably about 5-6k a week. If our TOP earners were on any more than 3x that then I'd be very surprised. Until we see this year's broken down figures its hard to say what the new 21m figure for 2013 involves, but that is when the wages of Upson/Kuszczak/Ulloa/Bruno etc will hit the books, which are probably higher, but still I'd expect none higher than 20k.

Oh, and Pogrebnyak @ Reading (or Zigic @ Brum or various at QPR) are poor examples as those sides have parachute payments and/or what's left of their TV money from last year. It's not comparable. 3 years ago our wage bill was 7m in L1, not 40m+ in the prem like Birmingham.

Well put, I am often confronted with we should buy X or the club don't spend enough, we are soon to be entering a period where only premiership clubs or parachute clubs will be able to keep spending big IF the rules are enforced. We are having to frustratingly endure clubs like Forrest and Palace desperately trying to fight gravity by throwing money at players that will soon be squeezed wage wise by FFP and the clubs with big budgets to buy them. I am sure signing players up (for example Conway and Blackburn) now on three/four year deals at 30 to 35k a week could easily put your club in Portsmouth, Bristol City and Bolton type troubles.

I believe the club will keep buying in young talent, Walton, Makismento, Starkey, Asmundsson, Dallison, Monakana and Ince, then aim to pick up experienced players out of contract and season long loans.

 

[JBizzle]

The biggest worry by a country mile is Kuszczak anybody else we can cover but not him.

I don't know, he'll need training but I'm sure we can get Brezovan to start kicking every backpass into touch...

I'm more worried about Orlandi and Kaz.

 

[Greavsey]

Fairly sure if we don't get promoted Tomasz Kuszczak won't be here next season.

Again though as questioned earlier in this thread where do you really think he is going to go!? OK he wants to play in the Prem. So do I! Assume he will want to be first choice, but for who!? If you look at the lower clubs in the Prem they all have decent keepers. As do those clubs that are potentially going up. I just can't see that he is going to be inundated with the kind of offers he is perhaps expecting.

He might get another club in the Championship if it is about money to him - Leeds must surely be looking to get rid of that clown Paddy Kenny at some point?!

 

[Brighton Breezy]

Again though as questioned earlier in this thread where do you really think he is going to go!? OK he wants to play in the Prem. So do I! Assume he will want to be first choice, but for who!? If you look at the lower clubs in the Prem they all have decent keepers. As do those clubs that are potentially going up. I just can't see that he is going to be inundated with the kind of offers he is perhaps expecting.

He might get another club in the Championship if it is about money to him - Leeds must surely be looking to get rid of that clown Paddy Kenny at some point?!

I guess a lot depends on any movement from top division clubs. I don't see him wanting to go anywhere as back up but you never know. Could end up going to a Championship club better placed for promotion next season.

 

[B.W.]

I'm still hopeful TK will re-sign. Not sure he will jump into a Prem team, and I expect we will remain competitive for promotion next season if we don't make it this.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I don't know, he'll need training but I'm sure we can get Brezovan to start kicking every backpass into touch...

I'm more worried about Orlandi and Kaz.

As before, we have an option to extend LuaLua's contract by another year.

 

[Creaky]

I think it could be a couple of years before FFP has an effect on wages, and the teams that stick to FFP from the start will miss out on players initially. I think while, for example, we offer FFP wages to a player this season, another club will offer them more money than us because they either have a bigger budget (e.g. ex-prem team with parachute payments) or they are not convinced FFP will stick so will take the risk that it's a toothless policy this summer and take the attitude that worst case scenario they can't sign a new player but won't need to as they have signed who they want for that position this summer, with the hope of promotion out of the Championship at the end of the season.


Then either FFP is shown to be strong, and over time the teams with the big budgets have their fill, and what's left have to take that pay cut, or FFP will crumble and players will go to clubs who don't care about running the club to its means.

Let's say the current FFP targets were observed by all the clubs - simply put it would mean that those teams with the largest crowds, the biggest sponsorship deals and the most attractive to the TV companies would have a distinct advantage in terms of player budget.

If you are happy with that then fine but of course it means that any club being promoted to the Championship will be at as big a disadvantage as those who get promoted to the Premier League currently are. - Likewise those relegated from The Premier League will have an even bigger advantage than they currently do.

It also means that clubs in the sort of situation we found ourselves in just 5 years ago would have no hope of making the jump forward we have.

How much easier if FFP simply said that no team in the Championship could spend more than a fixed figure, (e.g. £10M), on player's wages. Easy to police and prevent breaches - if a new contract would take a club over that figure then the league could refuse to ratify it - no need for penalties as the rule couldn't be breached.

 

[spring hall convert]

How much easier if FFP simply said that no team in the Championship could spend more than a fixed figure, (e.g. £10M), on player's wages. Easy to police and prevent breaches - if a new contract would take a club over that figure then the league could refuse to ratify it - no need for penalties as the rule couldn't be breached.

For 2 reasons I wager.

The legacy contracts of relegated clubs would cripple them unless perhaps you had a staged reduction in the cap, which in itself would be similar to parachute payments.

In someways, the hierarchical structure of the status quo is desirable for the purpose of European competiton (though don't the Champions League & Europa have another set of qualifying criteria anyway?)

 

[reigate]

And it never ceases to amaze me how people over-estimate how much we pay. I'm afraid your figures are massively flawed. First of all, we pay more than 25 players in a season. Secondly, that figure includes signing on and agent fees as well as wages. Thirdly, the 14m figure is for ALL staff - 450 P/T staff, 80-100 back office staff, the academy staff, the coaches & manager, the directors as well as the players.

20k a week is 1m a year. You think Orlandi is on 20k? Well if that's true then so are CMS, Ulloa, Greer, Upson, Kuszczak, Crofts and Bruno, AT LEAST. That's another 7 players who are, by your logic, on 1m a year. That's £8m on 8 players. Suddenly 14m doesn't go quite so far to pay the rest does it? Our average was by my maths probably about 5-6k a week. If our TOP earners were on any more than 3x that then I'd be very surprised. Until we see this year's broken down figures its hard to say what the new 21m figure for 2013 involves, but that is when the wages of Upson/Kuszczak/Ulloa/Bruno etc will hit the books, which are probably higher, but still I'd expect none higher than 20k.

Oh, and Pogrebnyak @ Reading (or Zigic @ Brum or various at QPR) are poor examples as those sides have parachute payments and/or what's left of their TV money from last year. It's not comparable. 3 years ago our wage bill was 7m in L1, not 40m+ in the prem like Birmingham.

Completely agree. A friend of mine had to credit check one of our senior players last summer (to let out a property) and he was on £6k a week.

 

[Creaky]

For 2 reasons I wager.

The legacy contracts of relegated clubs would cripple them unless perhaps you had a staged reduction in the cap, which in itself would be similar to parachute payments.

In someways, the hierarchical structure of the status quo is desirable for the purpose of European competiton (though don't the Champions League & Europa have another set of qualifying criteria anyway?)

Actually I'm not sure there would be a problem with relegated teams - remember I'm suggesting a system with no penalties so the relegated clubs could continue to pay the higher wage bill and would only have a problem if/when they wanted to make a new signing. As the high contracts ended their wage bill would drop below the permitted level.

UEFA do have a different set of FFP rules for the Champions League and Europa Cup - It is based a around a maximum wage bill for the club - not in percentage terms but a fixed cash sum the same for all clubs - as I suggested would work for the Championship.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Actually I'm not sure there would be a problem with relegated teams - remember I'm suggesting a system with no penalties so the relegated clubs could continue to pay the higher wage bill and would only have a problem if/when they wanted to make a new signing. As the high contracts ended their wage bill would drop below the permitted level.

UEFA do have a different set of FFP rules for the Champions League and Europa Cup - It is based a around a maximum wage bill for the club - not in percentage terms but a fixed cash sum the same for all clubs - as I suggested would work for the Championship.

You are right - a UEFA wide fixed maximum wage bill would be great, but for fair competition we should be allowed to spend as much as ( for example ) Barcelona.

Otherwise you give the teams relegated from the Premier League a massive and unfair advantage.

 

[TopCat]

And it never ceases to amaze me how people over-estimate how much we pay. I'm afraid your figures are massively flawed. First of all, we pay more than 25 players in a season. Secondly, that figure includes signing on and agent fees as well as wages. Thirdly, the 14m figure is for ALL staff - 450 P/T staff, 80-100 back office staff, the academy staff, the coaches & manager, the directors as well as the players.

20k a week is 1m a year. You think Orlandi is on 20k? Well if that's true then so are CMS, Ulloa, Greer, Upson, Kuszczak, Crofts and Bruno, AT LEAST. That's another 7 players who are, by your logic, on 1m a year. That's £8m on 8 players. Suddenly 14m doesn't go quite so far to pay the rest does it? Our average was by my maths probably about 5-6k a week. If our TOP earners were on any more than 3x that then I'd be very surprised. Until we see this year's broken down figures its hard to say what the new 21m figure for 2013 involves, but that is when the wages of Upson/Kuszczak/Ulloa/Bruno etc will hit the books, which are probably higher, but still I'd expect none higher than 20k.

Was told by a mutual colleague/friend that Bruno is on £11k a week. No insight into where that puts him in wage structure, but would guess he would be one of higher earners based on his situation and experience when he joined us.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I am probably wrong (and I really hope I am), but the pessimist in me just can't see the authorities cracking down on FFP in the strong manner in which we seem to be hoping for.

Again, probably wrong.

 

[Greavsey]

I am probably wrong (and I really hope I am), but the pessimist in me just can't see the authorities cracking down on FFP in the strong manner in which we seem to be hoping for.

Again, probably wrong.

I think everyone is dubious about this which is why again Barber is doing the PR piece about it... I do think it is a convenient piece of legislation for Bloom to hide behind, and fair play to him if he doesn't want to just continue pouring money into the club and try to make it a business that pays for itself.

While other clubs (cough, Forest) are risking that it won't be implemented properly, we are taking our own gamble that it will be and there are probably a few clubs that are somewhere in the pragmatic middle ground and not quite as evangelical as us.

 

[BensGrandad]

I don't know, he'll need training but I'm sure we can get Brezovan to start kicking every backpass into touch...

I'm more worried about Orlandi and Kaz.

Isnt the major objective of the keeper is to not concede goals and catch the ball. This is where TK far exceeds our other keepers so the odd miskick, and it is usually one or two a game, can be excused.

 

[Springal]

Isnt the major objective of the keeper is to not concede goals and catch the ball. This is where TK far exceeds our other keepers so the odd miskick, and it is usually one or two a game, can be excused.

ODD mis-kick ? He was terrible Saturday.

His distribution actually appears to be getting worse