[Music] Fairytale of New York - PC gone mad or correct decision?

[Hugo Rune]

Pathetic isn't it?

Not a song I like by the way, but that is because I don't like the Band and their style of music, not because of any naughty words they might have used.

Still, feel free to be offended by a 33 year old record...

The original will still be played on Radio 2.

It’s naive generational relativity to suggest that the under 12s (Radio 1 audience) would not be offended by the derogatory term ‘f****t’, they are.

 

[Curious Orange]

Context is everything, the song is about a couple having an argument, set in 1940's New York. The use of the word is quite appropriate for the character using it in that context.

Remember that words are not binary things, and their meanings can be quite fluid over time, and indeed, in the moment. And yes, people are allowed to be shocked and offended by a word's use, that doesn't mean it is inappropriate for it to be there given the context.

I would not expect people now to be using such language whilst talking to each other because we as a society have (hopefully) come to the consensus that it is wrong.

 

[The Wizard]

Heard worse in current RnB music, not a massive fan of the song but I’ve never been offended by a song lyric in my life to be honest, if I did I wouldn’t listen to any songs with defamatory words in that are still being produced now.

I find it a bit puzzling to be honest, it’s very easy to just cut out the couple of offensive words, which shouldn’t be broadcast on national radio anyway without making a big song and dance about it, they do it with current songs that have offensive language or terms in, it takes an editor probably less than a minute to just silence out the offensive words and play the rest of the song is normal.

 

[Gazwag]

IMO people were far more upset when the records was first released that the people of the same age today - see Relax for another example that was banned in the 80's but is played everywhere today

 

[Gazwag]

Assume the words changed are s**t and f****t?

It's obviously causing much offence amongst millenials and the LGBTQIP+ community so maybe we should respect their wishes as they attempt to build a more fair and inclusive society than the one many of us have grown up in.

Sussex by the Sea will be next, you mark my words

They will be wanting "and useful people are we"

 

[Stato]

I'm in my 40s and I've always hated that song. It is homophobic and I hate that it is completely excused because its Christmas.

The song is not homophobic. It has a character that uses homophobic language. It deals with a section of society that did/does use prejudiced language in the same way that 'Oliver's Army' uses a racist term that was applied by the English to the Irish. Macgowan dealt with the fuss in a very level headed and erudite way a couple of years ago https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...******-reference-in-christmas-song-1.3723622:

“The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character,” he said. “She is not supposed to be a nice person, or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate.”
He said the dialogue was “as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character and not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively.”
The singer added that he did not want to get into an argument about the song and said he would have no problem with that word being bleeped out during radio airplay.

L.P. Hartley's famous quote from the 'Go-Between' is relevant to most of these arguments about offence versus context: "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there." Let's have an understanding of the truth of this and accept that we can acknowledge the progress made in many areas between then and now without complete condemnation of artists who created great things, but didn't have access to the increased understanding of the potential effects of language on minority groups that came with late 20th/21st century political consideration.

 

[neilbard]

Sussex by the Sea will be next, you mark my words

They will be wanting "and useful people are we"

And a soldier boy is the ladies joy.

 

[keaton]

IMO people were far more upset when the records was first released that the people of the same age today - see Relax for another example that was banned in the 80's but is played everywhere today

Indeef, the people who seem most upset about the banning of records and programmes seem to forget this has been happening for decades and blame it all on youngsters.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Sussex by the Sea will be next, you mark my words

They will be wanting "and useful people are we"

It's also ageist - "old"

"Going up" is demeaning to women/"stand" is discriminatory against wheelchair users (delete according to preference)

"my boys" - sexist

"up in the morning early" - clear sexual innuendo

"lightly he goes a-wooing, lightly he rides away" - 1) encouraging young males to behave poorly in their dating habits, 2) encouraging people to ride animals - must be bad for their backs

"soldier boy is the ladies' joy" - 1) discriminatory against sailors, airmen/women, anyone on civvie street, 2) sexist - what there are no female soldiers?, 3) encouraging polygamy, 4) sexual innuendo

etc...

 

[MattBackHome]

It's been censored in some places for the last 10-15 years. Radio 1 have been censoring stuff since the 60s.

I fail to see any reason to get titsy about the decision now.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

If you're over 12, why are you listening to Radio 1 anyway?

Saying that, I doubt there are even kids listening to the Radio these days.

I'm 42 and I was listening to R1 last night with the Jnr Bobkins – 12 and 16. Why? Because I – and they – like the music it plays. I don't listen to it all the time, but once in a while I switch to it. Annie Mac, for example, is a fantastic broadcaster who plays great tunes.

Personally I couldn't care less about the station not playing the 'proper' version of FoNY and it makes me laugh how so many people who would (as you point out) never listen to Radio 1 are mortified and incandescent with RAGE about the decision. Like there is no other way they could consume the song!

I see that it's triggered the #DefundTheBBC lot into action – I'm imagining huge crossover there with those people who won't shop in Sainsbury's because one of its adverts featured a black family. But OTHER people are the snowflakes – let's just be clear about this...

 

[Is it PotG?]

In the video, the Pipe Band did not know "Galway Bay" and so sang a song that all of them knew the words to – the "Mickey Mouse March", the theme tune for The Mickey Mouse Club television series.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

The song is not homophobic. It has a character that uses homophobic language. It deals with a section of society that did/does use prejudiced language in the same way that 'Oliver's Army' uses a racist term that was applied by the English to the Irish. Macgowan dealt with the fuss in a very level headed and erudite way a couple of years ago https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...******-reference-in-christmas-song-1.3723622:

“The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character,” he said. “She is not supposed to be a nice person, or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate.”
He said the dialogue was “as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character and not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively.”
The singer added that he did not want to get into an argument about the song and said he would have no problem with that word being bleeped out during radio airplay.

L.P. Hartley's famous quote from the 'Go-Between' is relevant to most of these arguments about offence versus context: "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there." Let's have an understanding of the truth of this and accept that we can acknowledge the progress made in many areas between then and now without complete condemnation of artists who created great things, but didn't have access to the increased understanding of the potential effects of language on minority groups that came with late 20th/21st century political consideration.

Who is this LP Hartley? I like the cut of his or her gib.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Who is this LP Hartley? I like the cut of his gib.

Wasn't he in Yellow Pages?

 

[Albion Dan]

One of the biggest challenges facing future society imo is the drive to protect everyone from any sort of offence or pain in life. It could (and probably will imo) ultimately lead to extreme censorship and the loss of rights to free speech in time. Ultimately a part of what makes an individual well rounded and resilient in life is experiencing challenge and learning to be able to manage things one finds uncomfortable and learn to actually defend themselves when it arises and actually use those debates to highlight what is right or wrong. I read a good book that talked about how much quality of life has improved with many of us never really experiencing any real hardship leading to tiny and ultimately non consequential things that people can choose to find offence in now becoming huge issue points as groups feel they have a right to be spared anything they may not like.

 

[MattBackHome]

Also I'm not sure if the "the songs not homophobic, it just has homophobic words in it" argument holds much water in the context of whether or not it should be being played to kids 48 times a day on repeat.

Anyway Radio 1 has been officially shite since Mark & Lard packed it in. Yes, I'm 41.

 

[Arthritic Toe]

See no problem with them playing an edited version - still get to hear a great song and no one is offended.

 

[Stato]

Perhaps Radio 1 should be playing this heart breaking masterpiece to balance any accusations of homophobia thrown in Macgowan's direction. Recorded in 1985 and used in 1991 by Gus Van Zant as the closing music in 'My Own Private Idaho'. It shows the same compassion for its characters that Fairytale does. Mcgowan deals with those living in the darker corners of our society and reflects and celebrates their humanity. Maybe the mainstream audiences of Radio 1 and Gavin & Stacey Christmas specials are not able to deal with the rough edges of his art, but then there's not a lot of evidence that they are concerned with dealing with the problems of the sections of society that he writes about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTsShIUx1Q

 

[Bakero]

I'm 42 and I was listening to R1 last night with the Jnr Bobkins – 12 and 16. Why? Because I – and they – like the music it plays. I don't listen to it all the time, but once in a while I switch to it. Annie Mac, for example, is a fantastic broadcaster who plays great tunes.

Personally I couldn't care less about the station not playing the 'proper' version of FoNY and it makes me laugh how so many people who would (as you point out) never listen to Radio 1 are mortified and incandescent with RAGE about the decision. Like there is no other way they could consume the song!

I see that it's triggered the #DefundTheBBC lot into action – I'm imagining huge crossover there with those people who won't shop in Sainsbury's because one of its adverts featured a black family. But OTHER people are the snowflakes – let's just be clear about this...

Good points, well made.

 

[MattBackHome]

I wish Radio 1 would play Dirty Old Town more than they do,m it's a cracker. Or at least I imagine they don't play it, I never listen. But the point stands regardless.