[Albion] Facundo Buonanotte **On Loan To Leicester 10/08/24**

[The Fits]

He's not a diver for the hundred millionth time. He's a skilful winger who often gets fouled, more than anyone else we own. See my previous post below (#1522), and direct reply to you on this (#1530).


If you could legitimise your problems with Facu with facts, that may add something to the debate, yet you Swan back on here and come up with the same rubbish as you used to.

A player can be fouled lots but also dive lots.
He lets himself down with that side of his game.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Sorry I'm not in the camp "when our players dive it is skillful/clever, when others do it it is horrible".

He gets fouled sometimes, more often than not he throws himself to the ground.
In your post you compared Buonanotte with players like Ayew and Grealish, two players whos entire game revolves around diving and winning cheap free kicks. You also mentioned Joel Veltman who dies eleven times every game if someone touches him.

A player winning a lot of fouls does not mean he isn't a diver. Your whole argument is flawed.

I'm not sure whether he dives a lot my issue is that at times he makes ta meal of it, rolling around which is embarrassing. In his defence he does get fouled more than most players and I think the rolling around is less than it was. He' 19, he has bulked up a bit hopefully he will be able to stay on his feet more. I think there is a very good player there , needs to play centrally as he is not a winger.

 

[Beanstalk]

Sorry I'm not in the camp "when our players dive it is skillful/clever, when others do it it is horrible".

He gets fouled sometimes, more often than not he throws himself to the ground.
In your post you compared Buonanotte with players like Ayew and Grealish, two players whos entire game revolves around diving and winning cheap free kicks. You also mentioned Joel Veltman who dies eleven times every game if someone touches him.

A player winning a lot of fouls does not mean he isn't a diver. Your whole argument is flawed.

I'm not in the ""when our players dive it is skillful/clever, when others do it it is horrible" camp either. I think I've quite clearly explained that other players, including some at Palace, are good at drawing and winning fouls because it is part of the game. The laws of the game are much clearer than your opinions. It doesn't really matter if a player is looking for a foul, or intends to use their body to win free kicks and create goalscoring opportunities, if they're fouled by the defender, it's a foul.

When I go and watch Brighton play every weekend home and away, I cannot think of a single instance of Facu diving without touch. That would be a booking, in which he's never received one for simulation... funny that. He may go down looking for a foul on occasion, in which a referee deems it is not a foul, but that isn't diving and if the foul is given it's good play. Your whole argument is based on a self-determined definition of what diving is that differentiates from the laws of the game. That's a big flaw in argument.

 

[Han Solo]

I'm not sure whether he dives a lot my issue is that at times he makes ta meal of it, rolling around which is embarrassing. In his defence he does get fouled more than most players and I think the rolling around is less than it was. He' 19, he has bulked up a bit hopefully he will be able to stay on his feet more. I think there is a very good player there , needs to play centrally as he is not a winger.

Ye the rolling around certainly doesn't help... there was more than one time last season when he laid done on the grass for a good minute while play continued. And then you saw the replay and there was absolutely nothing. Meaning we're down to ten men because he's trying to do Argentinian school boy tricks on the ref.

Hopefully he can remove those dirty and dumb aspects of his game because as you say, he's a very good player who can reach the top of the top.

 

[Beanstalk]

A player can be fouled lots but also dive lots.
He lets himself down with that side of his game.

I've simply asked a certain poster who is stuck on this idea for some facts to back that assertion up...

Is he a bit lightweight? Sure. Does he make wrong decisions? Sure. Is there any actual evidence that he "dives"? I haven't seen it.

Need to move away from "going down easily = diving", in my opinion. Being muscled off the ball and it not being given as a foul isn't a dive, it's just not great play. Diving is when you simulate being fouled without being contacted. I'm yet to see that from Facu and am yet to be presented with any facts to challenge it.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

People sometimes forget that a huge number of our players are still learning their trade and are plying it at a very high level in a very public arena at a very young age. Not one of them is the finished article, and won't be for another four or five or six years. But very many of them show huge potential. Including Buonanotte. They just need a proper amount of time to develop their potential

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

He weighs sometimes 20% less than some of the players he's coming into contact with so he's going to be knocked off the ball. One thing he'll learn is to use the weight he has better than he does now.

But yes, i'd prefer he just got up and got on with it and cut out the histrionics.

I don't think i've seen him totally feign any contact at all.

 

[Insel affe]

People sometimes forget that a huge number of our players are still learning their trade and are plying it at a very high level in a very public arena at a very young age. Not one of them is the finished article, and won't be for another four or five or six years. But very many of them show huge potential. Including Buonanotte. They just need a proper amount of time to develop their potential

and then they will move on, great.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

and then they will move on, great.

But we'll have been acquiring and developing their replacements, (who seem to usually be more than adequate)

That's how we operate as you well know

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

and then they will move on, great.

We might not like it, but that's the business model. Maybe just enjoy them while they're here?

 

[Han Solo]

I'm not in the ""when our players dive it is skillful/clever, when others do it it is horrible" camp either. I think I've quite clearly explained that other players, including some at Palace, are good at drawing and winning fouls because it is part of the game. The laws of the game are much clearer than your opinions. It doesn't really matter if a player is looking for a foul, or intends to use their body to win free kicks and create goalscoring opportunities, if they're fouled by the defender, it's a foul.

When I go and watch Brighton play every weekend home and away, I cannot think of a single instance of Facu diving without touch. That would be a booking, in which he's never received one for simulation... funny that. He may go down looking for a foul on occasion, in which a referee deems it is not a foul, but that isn't diving and if the foul is given it's good play. Your whole argument is based on a self-determined definition of what diving is that differentiates from the laws of the game. That's a big flaw in argument.

Yes, "good at drawing fouls" is exactly the phrase people use when they are defending their own diving players. It does matter a f*** lot if the "player is looking for a foul" - I don't want to see it. No matter if its looking for a leg to fall over, fall over because of a small touch or fall over for no reason, its a shit part of the game that needs to be stamped out, not seen as some sort of brilliance. If every team had 11 players "looking for fouls" I'd never watch football again in my life. Still remember my fury over Lamptey getting a red card for being on the same planet as Grealish.

That he isn't getting getting booked for his simulations proves nothing because nearly every simulation in the games goes unpunished - even when detected. The referee does not decide what is a dive and what isn't - basic laws of physics do..

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Need to move away from "going down easily = diving", in my opinion. Being muscled off the ball and it not being given as a foul isn't a dive, it's just not great play. Diving is when you simulate being fouled without being contacted. I'm yet to see that from Facu and am yet to be presented with any facts to challenge it.

By contrast, I think we should be much much harsher on players looking for/making too much of contact.*

Partly because of an old fashioned moral objection, but mainly because I think a player just running into somebody and then getting a free kick for it is shit to watch.

*Like, medievally harsh. I'm thinking something involving hundreds of miles of snowy forest and some wolves.

 

[Reinelt12]

Yes, "good at drawing fouls" is exactly the phrase people use when they are defending their own diving players. It does matter a f*** lot if the "player is looking for a foul" - I don't want to see it. No matter if its looking for a leg to fall over, fall over because of a small touch or fall over for no reason, its a shit part of the game that needs to be stamped out, not seen as some sort of brilliance. If every team had 11 players "looking for fouls" I'd never watch football again in my life. Still remember my fury over Lamptey getting a red card for being on the same planet as Grealish.

That he isn't getting getting booked for his simulations proves nothing because nearly every simulation in the games goes unpunished - even when detected. The referee does not decide what is a dive and what isn't - basic laws of physics do..

It'll never be stamped out of the game... others do it, and I'd imagine some even train to do it successfully (draw fouls, not dive)

Murray was an absolute master of it, Veltman with his dark arts degree is also unrivalled - it is part of the game, and will be so for many years to come I am afraid.

The key is that what you haven't mentioned is the other side of the coin, defenders who have their own tricks that referees don't see, pulling shirts, obstruction etc. - you can't have one part of the game and not the other...

 

[Beanstalk]

By contrast, I think we should be much much harsher on players looking for/making too much of contact.*

Partly because of an old fashioned moral objection, but mainly because I think a player just running into somebody and then getting a free kick for it is shit to watch.

*Like, medievally harsh. I'm thinking something involving hundreds of miles of snowy forest and some wolves.

I think there has been a movement towards that in the last season at least. Contact doesn't always equals foul at the moment.

At the same time, I think we all want to see the game be skewed in favour of attacking and the current quality of football is much better served by not being able to employ a tactic where you just boot players up in the air and the referee waves play on.

On a more important matter, if the punishment was "something involving hundreds of miles of snowy forest and some wolves", which of our current squad would be best placed to survive?

I would've said Igor but don't think he'd do that well in the snow, so I'm going for Undav.

 

[Insel affe]

We might not like it, but that's the business model. Maybe just enjoy them while they're here?

Yeah I do enjoy them while they are here, but could imagine after a while it will get tiresome seeing this immerging talent just get plucked off.
Add to that one day the well might run dry, we are a progressive club with a clear plan I accept that, but I also would like to see us win something of note before I die, all very well saying I used to watch young Barco or whoever when he was learning the ropes, so what !! so did other parents of his school football team, lovely memories but nothing to show for it.

I want a trophy before I die.

 

[MJsGhost]

I'm not in the ""when our players dive it is skillful/clever, when others do it it is horrible" camp either. I think I've quite clearly explained that other players, including some at Palace, are good at drawing and winning fouls because it is part of the game. The laws of the game are much clearer than your opinions. It doesn't really matter if a player is looking for a foul, or intends to use their body to win free kicks and create goalscoring opportunities, if they're fouled by the defender, it's a foul.

When I go and watch Brighton play every weekend home and away, I cannot think of a single instance of Facu diving without touch. That would be a booking, in which he's never received one for simulation... funny that. He may go down looking for a foul on occasion, in which a referee deems it is not a foul, but that isn't diving and if the foul is given it's good play. Your whole argument is based on a self-determined definition of what diving is that differentiates from the laws of the game. That's a big flaw in argument.

I may be wrong, but I thought 'simulation' (i.e. diving) isn't just going down without contact. Does it not also include exaggerating contact to deceive the ref? (and therefore technically a booking - it's a tough judgment call for a ref to make as they can't book everyone they think went down too easily because it can be by varying degrees).

I don't remember an instance of him going down with no contact, but I have definitely been left thinking that he's gone down very easily under minimal contact quite a few times.

I don't like that aspect of football, so I wish he'd stop.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Yeah I do enjoy them while they are here, but could imagine after a while it will get tiresome seeing this immerging talent just get plucked off.
Add to that one day the well might run dry, we are a progressive club with a clear plan I accept that, but I also would like to see us win something of note before I die, all very well saying I used to watch young Barco or whoever when he was learning the ropes, so what !! so did other parents of his school football team, lovely memories but nothing to show for it.

I want a trophy before I die.

I get it you're depressed at the moment. I really do. But in the end the Albion is just an entertainment sideshow to our lives. It don't really matter a shit. Take care and have a fantastic time with your family in Andalucia.That's the important stuff

 

[Dave the OAP]

Yeah I do enjoy them while they are here, but could imagine after a while it will get tiresome seeing this immerging talent just get plucked off.
Add to that one day the well might run dry, we are a progressive club with a clear plan I accept that, but I also would like to see us win something of note before I die, all very well saying I used to watch young Barco or whoever when he was learning the ropes, so what !! so did other parents of his school football team, lovely memories but nothing to show for it.

I want a trophy before I die.

I felt exactly that when Mac and Cac left.

we found them, nurtured them, sold them for a profit.

modern football in a nutshell.

 

[Han Solo]

I felt exactly that when Mac and Cac left.

we found them, nurtured them, sold them for a profit.

modern football in a nutshell.

What would have happened if Brighton had a top class player in the 70s, 80s or 90s? Would he have stayed?
Or is the concept of good players moving to big clubs not really all that new?

 

[Gwylan]

What would have happened if Brighton had a top class player in the 70s, 80s or 90s? Would he have stayed?
Or is the concept of good players moving to big clubs not really all that new?

We did, We had Mark Lawrenson, still the best player I've ever seen at the club. He had four seasons before going to LIverpool - stayed longer than Caicedo or Mac but not as long as Pascal.

I don't think there was the same level of sadness for him as for Gross though - it was accepted that he'd go sooner or later