[Football] F365 - Middle no longer means mediocrity

[Postman Pat]

Apologies for yet another thread on CH sacking, but I think this is a brilliant article on Football 365 and is what most sensible Brighton fans are trying to articulate why we feel a change was needed.

I won't post the full thing here as it will detract from clicks on the site

Collectively, this seems to represent a shift in mood. Previously, the broadcasting revenue was treated as a reward for continuity. Now, in conjunction with their native resources, the bulk of the clubs who comprise this middle-class see the opportunity that exists within that wealth, treating seasons as waypoints rather than final destinations. In the abstract, it’s football’s equivalent of a research and development culture, in which the folly of exorbitant spending is being de-emphasised in favour of smarter decisions and the pursuit of marginal gains.

The money continues to pour into the market place, the Premier League has hardly become frugal, but it’s not being pumped out into the ether. Owners will write the same cheques, yes, but with changing expectations of what their clubs can be and a demand for something other than safety. They want the feeling of progress. If that can’t be reflected in the league table, then they want to know that their club is running optimally and with the maximum chance of success. It’s an example which has been set and which, now, the great majority want to follow.

In that light, the situation at Brighton makes much more sense. For the purposes of Chris Hughton’s own reputation, gaining promotion and then surviving relegation twice remains a fine achievement. For Tony Bloom and Dan Ashworth, however, the failure to become incrementally more competitive would really have been a regression and the inefficiencies at its heart intolerable.

https://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-the-middle-no-longer-means-mediocrity-premier-league

 

[The Oldman]

Excellent analysis.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Without having read the full article, I think I disagree with the jist of it if I've understood it correctly.

Whilst I was personally very much against the sacking of CH, I've spent the last few days trying to explain the complexities of the situation to casual observers who've looked at our survival and can't understand why we got rid - the whole "do you think you should be challenging for Europe?" comments. I don't think for the majority of people it was about progressing or improving, but apprehending what looked like a slide towards possible relegation. People felt like didn't look like we'd finish 17th again next year.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Apologies for yet another thread on CH sacking, but I think this is a brilliant article on Football 365 and is what most sensible Brighton fans are trying to articulate why we feel a change was needed.

I won't post the full thing here as it will detract from clicks on the site

Collectively, this seems to represent a shift in mood. Previously, the broadcasting revenue was treated as a reward for continuity. Now, in conjunction with their native resources, the bulk of the clubs who comprise this middle-class see the opportunity that exists within that wealth, treating seasons as waypoints rather than final destinations. In the abstract, it’s football’s equivalent of a research and development culture, in which the folly of exorbitant spending is being de-emphasised in favour of smarter decisions and the pursuit of marginal gains.

The money continues to pour into the market place, the Premier League has hardly become frugal, but it’s not being pumped out into the ether. Owners will write the same cheques, yes, but with changing expectations of what their clubs can be and a demand for something other than safety. They want the feeling of progress. If that can’t be reflected in the league table, then they want to know that their club is running optimally and with the maximum chance of success. It’s an example which has been set and which, now, the great majority want to follow.

In that light, the situation at Brighton makes much more sense. For the purposes of Chris Hughton’s own reputation, gaining promotion and then surviving relegation twice remains a fine achievement. For Tony Bloom and Dan Ashworth, however, the failure to become incrementally more competitive would really have been a regression and the inefficiencies at its heart intolerable.

https://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-the-middle-no-longer-means-mediocrity-premier-league

Good piece, not much to argue with.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Without having read the full article, I think I disagree with the jist of it if I've understood it correctly.

Whilst I was personally very much against the sacking of CH, I've spent the last few days trying to explain the complexities of the situation to casual observers who've looked at our survival and can't understand why we got rid - the whole "do you think you should be challenging for Europe?" comments. I don't think for the majority of people it was about progressing or improving, but apprehending what looked like a slide towards possible relegation. People felt like didn't look like we'd finish 17th again next year.

The point of it is, if you don't improve incrementally you will go down and I agree with that 100%.

 

[The Tactician]

Great article. Very astute and interesting observations about the wider implications of Hughton's dismissal.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Great article...

Other than the opening statement of "given what Hughton had achieved in his three years at the club".

If you're going to do a piece of in-depth journalism, how hard is it to find out how long a manager as been at a football club?

So just the 18months short of his true employment duration, I'm sure the rest of the article must be credible...

 

[ATFC Seagull]

The point of it is, if you don't improve incrementally you will go down and I agree with that 100%.

I agree with what you've said, but didn't read that from the article. I took it to mean incrementally more competitive within the confines of the division.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

Highlights the need for the next man to work closely with Ashworth and be on the same page. Maybe Phil Neville is not such a bad shout after bearing in mind their relationship at the FA

 

[father_and_son]

Without having read the full article, I think I disagree with the jist of it if I've understood it correctly.

Whilst I was personally very much against the sacking of CH, I've spent the last few days trying to explain the complexities of the situation to casual observers who've looked at our survival and can't understand why we got rid - the whole "do you think you should be challenging for Europe?" comments. I don't think for the majority of people it was about progressing or improving, but apprehending what looked like a slide towards possible relegation. People felt like didn't look like we'd finish 17th again next year.

The premise of the argument in the article is really that 'progress' no longer means climbing the table. No one is standing still so if you don't progress yourselves you will just slide backwards and eventually out of the league... We were right on the edge of that precipice and not progressing so TB did the only thing he could and look to change.

I get the idea expressed and do agree given how well presented it is. Until Cardiff I had assumed Chris' brief was "survive" and despite the dreadful performances and dodgy position, I remained confident we would survive. But Cardiff was the turning point for me. That's when it clicked. We are on an inclined treadmill... Staying still isn't an option and we were staying still. We had to change, evolve, improve... The reward would be "survive" not Europe or, indeed, top half, just staying in the division next season.
We had switched from 4411 to 433 and it wasn't working (this is down to the players IMO) but instead of working with what he had and trying something new to make 433 work, he just resorted to 4411. Pragmatic and necessary for survival this time but not progress.
If the only thing you can do is what you have always done but everyone else innovates, you become extinct.

For TB extinction is not an option... Time to evolve. We should be using players in their preferred positions, we should be bringing talent up from the academy and fundamentally, we cannot win games with 10 men behind the ball and the lone attacker is not a super quick striker with a rocket shot and a lightning trigger to use it. Glenn is not that man for all the goals he taps, heads, bundles and c*CK blocks into the goal.

The academy is there to find talent and generate money. Those players we don't want to keep, we have to sell, but if we don't put them in the shop window every once in while, no one wants to buy.

TLDR; Chris is a dinosaur. A gentleman and a scholar and the nicest man in football. But he cannot innovate the way we have to. However good it is at this moment, same old same old is not enough next month never mind next season.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Great article...

Other than the opening statement of "given what Hughton had achieved in his three years at the club".

If you're going to do a piece of in-depth journalism, how hard is it to find out how long a manager as been at a football club?

So just the 18months short of his true employment duration, I'm sure the rest of the article must be credible...

To be fair this wasn't a piece about facts and figure but a take on what is happening in the middle of the table and an attempt to understand the thinking behind Bloom's sacking of Hughton.

The middle ground is populated by the more celebral coaches - and the days of the autocratic 'character gaffers' like 'Arry, Pardew, Allardyce, Pulis seem to be on the wane.

 

[Bold Seagull]

To be fair this wasn't a piece about facts and figure but a take on what is happening in the middle of the table and an attempt to understand the thinking behind Bloom's sacking of Hughton.

The middle ground is populated by the more celebral coaches - and the days of the autocratic 'character gaffers' like 'Arry, Pardew, Allardyce, Pulis seem to be on the wane.

Having read the article, it perhaps would have been best posted on the Dan Ashworth thread.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

If the only thing you can do is what you have always done but everyone else innovates, you become extinct.

All very well put like the article, but this one line above is what really bothered me and I think fans just kept turning a blind eye to his Achilles heel.

 

[Bruntburger]

The premise of the argument in the article is really that 'progress' no longer means climbing the table. No one is standing still so if you don't progress yourselves you will just slide backwards and eventually out of the league... We were right on the edge of that precipice and not progressing so TB did the only thing he could and look to change.

I get the idea expressed and do agree given how well presented it is. Until Cardiff I had assumed Chris' brief was "survive" and despite the dreadful performances and dodgy position, I remained confident we would survive. But Cardiff was the turning point for me. That's when it clicked. We are on an inclined treadmill... Staying still isn't an option and we were staying still. We had to change, evolve, improve... The reward would be "survive" not Europe or, indeed, top half, just staying in the division next season.
We had switched from 4411 to 433 and it wasn't working (this is down to the players IMO) but instead of working with what he had and trying something new to make 433 work, he just resorted to 4411. Pragmatic and necessary for survival this time but not progress.
If the only thing you can do is what you have always done but everyone else innovates, you become extinct.

For TB extinction is not an option... Time to evolve. We should be using players in their preferred positions, we should be bringing talent up from the academy and fundamentally, we cannot win games with 10 men behind the ball and the lone attacker is not a super quick striker with a rocket shot and a lightning trigger to use it. Glenn is not that man for all the goals he taps, heads, bundles and c*CK blocks into the goal.

The academy is there to find talent and generate money. Those players we don't want to keep, we have to sell, but if we don't put them in the shop window every once in while, no one wants to buy.

TLDR; Chris is a dinosaur. A gentleman and a scholar and the nicest man in football. But he cannot innovate the way we have to. However good it is at this moment, same old same old is not enough next month never mind next season.

Very much this. Excellent summary


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[father_and_son]

All very well put like the article, but this one line above is what really bothered me and I think fans just kept turning a blind eye to his Achilles heel.

Absolutely... And until Cardiff I would admit being guilty of this myself. I called on here for a return to 4411, to be pragmatic and return to boring, defensive football. But I didn't see the folly in this in the medium/long term.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Absolutely... And until Cardiff I would admit being guilty of this myself. I called on here for a return to 4411, to be pragmatic and return to boring, defensive football. But I didn't see the folly in this in the medium/long term.

I wrote in another thread about our lack of any footballing identity beyond they-shall-not-pass, repel-all-boarders, remember The Alamo and that it couldn't go on this way, if only because it was such a backward step after the Poyet and Oscar years. I was hoping that there might be a change of emphasis from CH with some better summer recruitment. I think I now realise that that was just me indulging in wishful thinking because Hughton is such a great guy.

It could be argued that watching such negative football is a price worth paying for staying in the Premier League, but when it isn't even successful then things have to change. It's important to keep moving forward, in every sense.

 

[ferring seagull]

I think the crucial fact was that TB required more 'security' rather than to spend the final two months of the season -------- bricks !

He is not, in my opinion, expecting the Albion to be challenging top six or eight but is looking/hoping for a more competitive approach against the other 13 or 11 as the case may be !

 

[darkwolf666]

I wrote in another thread about our lack of any footballing identity beyond they-shall-not-pass, repel-all-boarders, remember The Alamo and that it couldn't go on this way, if only because it was such a backward step after the Poyet and Oscar years. I was hoping that there might be a change of emphasis from CH with some better summer recruitment. I think I now realise that that was just me indulging in wishful thinking because Hughton is such a great guy.

It could be argued that watching such negative football is a price worth paying for staying in the Premier League, but when it isn't even successful then things have to change. It's important to keep moving forward, in every sense.

I still keep looking back to the two full seasons that Hughton spent in charge of The Albion in The Championship, where we scored 72 and 74 goals - what changed, oh! I know, the club's desire to reach and stay in the Premier League - Hughton has fallen foul of that all encompassing need to stay at the top table and changed his mindset to the point of defend first score second.

I believe, given a top side in the Premier League Hughton could put out a side that would score goals and compete at the top level, all this ridiculous anti-football shit has come out of his desire to keep the team in the top flight.

Hopefully someone will give him a chance to prove this is just a blot on his career and he is capable of better things than he was able/allowed to do at Brighton in the Premier League.

 

[Stato]

I wrote in another thread about our lack of any footballing identity beyond they-shall-not-pass, repel-all-boarders, remember The Alamo and that it couldn't go on this way, if only because it was such a backward step after the Poyet and Oscar years. I was hoping that there might be a change of emphasis from CH with some better summer recruitment. I think I now realise that that was just me indulging in wishful thinking because Hughton is such a great guy.

It could be argued that watching such negative football is a price worth paying for staying in the Premier League, but when it isn't even successful then things have to change. It's important to keep moving forward, in every sense.

I think that this is where I'm at too. I loved Chris's off field identity enough to defend what has been happening on the pitch. His appointment after Gus and Oscar seemed like a good compromise that gave us a directness that had been lacking. For the first few years it worked wonderfully, but the counter attacking has dried up this season. Even when we were getting good results, it seemed that we relied on a perfect concurrence of solid defending and clinical finishing of our few chances.

However, in football terms I'm a worrier, and I'm concerned that we don't know whether we have the squad who can make the adjustment needed to work things differently. Since Monday's sacking, whisper it quietly......at quiet moments......I've been haunted......... by the ghostly visage............. of Frank de Boer.

 

[Pavilionaire]

76 matches, 69 goals scored. I find it incredible we actually scored 1 more goal this season than last season.

It doesn't help that in those 2 seasons Man City have scored 201 Prem goals - fans see this and want to play like them, but it doesn't work like that. In cricketing terms they are Jason Roy and Jos Buttler, we are Geoff Boycott and Chris Tavare.