[Other Sport] F1 2023

[Audax]

Just confirmed that he has and he's leaving.

And Brawn has confirmed he *won't* be taking the job.

The other rumour was that Ferrari might go for Fred Vasseur from Sauber / Alfa Romeo, but that one was circling a week or two ago and then went quiet. At the time, the rumours were claiming Binotto would be fired within 24 hours. Source site wasn't great, so didn't mention it (and, as it turns out, they were wrong on many counts).

 

[Mortdecai]

 

[Audax]

Few small bits of news have prompted me to update the first post in this thread a little.

1. Rumours out of Portugal today that, despite previous indications, if the China race is cancelled due to their zero covid policy, the race might be replaced - by Portimao.

2. McLaren have confirmed Alex Palou will be their official reserve driver next year, so I've tweaked the format of the teams/drivers section to include reserves and added in those I know have been announced and those that are most likely.

 

[kojak]

sad news
Patrick Tambay has died
RIP

 

[Audax]

FX Demaisson, the Technical Director hired by Capito, has also left Williams. Unclear on whether it is a planned & agreed departure or if they've been forced out. The official announcement suggests that Capito delayed his full retirement from motorsports to take the Williams job and implies that's why he's going now - but we all know in F1 a lot can be hidden behind implying something.

So that leaves Ferrari and Williams both without a Team Principal. On the Ferrari side, rumours persist that Fred Vasseur from Sauber / Alfa Romeo will be stepping across but I've not seen anything official yet.

And there's more interesting news today, this time about 2026: it's been reported in Germany that Honda have committed to a full return as a power unit supplied in 2026 but that it *won't* be with Red Bull. Instead, it's been mooted that Red Bull are chasing a deal with Ford where Red Bull Power Trains will build the unit but Ford will fund it and have some sort of badging deal so they can use it for marketing. In the short term, the Honda logos that returned to Red Bull's cars during 2022 will remain on the cars for 2023.

I've been banging this drum for a while: if Andretti wants into F1 they need to be making calls to the likes of Porsche and Honda. F1 will open the doors wide faster than <insert your favourite fast thing cliche> if Andretti submits an entry form that includes a new/returning power unit supplier.

Back to 2023: Haas have today confirmed that their chassis and nose for the 2023 car have passed the mandatory crash testing and have been homologated for next season. I believe they're the first team to officially confirm passing the crash tests.

 

[Audax]

Rumours become reality as Vasseur leaves Sauber to join Ferrari:



And in true Formula 1 fashion, that's sparked further talk. *Very* strong rumours that McLaren's Andreas Seidl will leave McLaren to join Sauber. In reality, that's an Audi appointment - prior to joining McLaren, Seidl worked with VW brand Porsche in the Le Mans series so it's no surprise that VW brand Audi would make a move for him.

 

[Audax]

Seidl move to Sauber (*cough* Audi *cough*) confirmed, but he'll be CEO and not Team Principal. A TP is yet to be signed and will be Seidl's first task.

McLaren have announced that they will promote current Racing Director, Andrea Stella, to the Team Principal role.

 

[Audax]

Happy New Year, all . I took a bit of a sabbatical from keeping the thread fully up-to-date over the festive period, but I'm back to work today and there's fresh F1 news to share so here's an update with everything I can remember that I've missed in recent weeks.

First up - car launch dates have started to be announced, which I've updated in the OP:

2023 Car launches

AlphaTauri: February 11th [Livery, New York]
Aston Martin: February 13th [Silverstone]
Ferrari: February 14th

AlphaTauri currently open proceedings, but it's a bit of a tease really - they've only announced a livery launch in New York, so unlikely to be much real 2023 car involved. It's likely we'll have to wait until the Bahrain test to see that.

Then Aston Martin a couple of days later at their Silverstone base, followed by Ferrari (no details other than date).

Next up, I think the big news was revealed yesterday afternoon via a short tweet:



Yes - FIA is officially looking into opening a formal process to accept new teams into Formula 1. Are they bowing to pressure from Andretti? Is there someone else they've received a quiet expression from that is triggering this move?

Rumours continue to swirl about potential new manufacturers wanting to join in the new cost-capped era for F1, in particular from 2026 when the revised power unit rules come into play. Honda have officially registered their interest for 2023, but it remains to be seen whether that will be a continuation of their relationship with Red Bull and the fledgling RBPT division or ... there's talk of them once again going it along with a full-fledged self-run team. Talk of Ford stumping up some cash to stick their badge on the RBPT power unit from 2026 onwards refuses to go away. Porsche's name continues to linger in the background. As do rumours that Hyundai might be looking for a way in (probably closer to a Ford solution via a badging deal rather than anything substantial).

With that many manufacturer names swirling in the rumour pot, it's no wonder the FIA might have suddenly become interest in opening the process for new teams. Could we be looking at a full grid of 26 cars for 2026? If it happens, I would think the new teams would be Honda (going it alone) and Andretti partnered with one of the new manufacturer names (Porsche badging an Audi or Ford badging an RBPT).

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

If there were 26 cars would they change the points system so the midfield would still be competitive?

When did it change form 6 cars getting points to ten?

 

[Audax]

If there were 26 cars would they change the points system so the midfield would still be competitive?

When did it change form 6 cars getting points to ten?

Doubt it. Back in the 80's, and I think into the early 90's, there was a period where there could be 30+ cars wanting to race at each event, with points only for the top 6. They had so many entries that the first session of the weekend was called pre-qualifying and any cars that didn't meet certain set criteria were forced to compete to get a place in the field for the rest of the weekend (and then further cars would be excluded during qualifying itself). back then, getting at least 1 point in a season was highly prized because that point would qualify a team for free freight from the the FIA for the following season - which would help struggling backmarker teams out massively.

In 2003, points were expanded to the top 8. Then in 2010 to the top 10. Personally, I'd love to see them go with a points system that awarded points further down the grid (eg to 15th at least). Especially if new teams come in and in particular if the current formula continues to work (prize structure for teams, cost cap, etc). Even with points down to 10th, it's still too easy for 1 fluke result for a team/driver to propel that team/driver to a better result than another team/driver that has been far more consistent. Not so much in the last few years, but thinking back to when we last had a full grid there were 3 teams that were all solid backmarkers with little to no chance of catching points - but their fortunes could (and IIRC did in a major way at least once) shift massively off the back of a single P11 result (not even points - because of best finishing position being the tiebreaker).

Edit: FWIW, the broader FIA rules that F1 operate under would still allow for F1 to accept more than 26 entries and bring back pre-qualifying. Unlikely to happen, though, given the FIA's drive to turn F1 into a Franchise sport where the teams are all able to be independently profitable - and thereby permanently secure the future of the sport.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Doubt it. Back in the 80's, and I think into the early 90's, there was a period where there could be 30+ cars wanting to race at each event, with points only for the top 6. They had so many entries that the first session of the weekend was called pre-qualifying and any cars that didn't meet certain set criteria were forced to compete to get a place in the field for the rest of the weekend (and then further cars would be excluded during qualifying itself). back then, getting at least 1 point in a season was highly prized because that point would qualify a team for free freight from the the FIA for the following season - which would help struggling backmarker teams out massively.

In 2003, points were expanded to the top 8. Then in 2010 to the top 10. Personally, I'd love to see them go with a points system that awarded points further down the grid (eg to 15th at least). Especially if new teams come in and in particular if the current formula continues to work (prize structure for teams, cost cap, etc). Even with points down to 10th, it's still too easy for 1 fluke result for a team/driver to propel that team/driver to a better result than another team/driver that has been far more consistent. Not so much in the last few years, but thinking back to when we last had a full grid there were 3 teams that were all solid backmarkers with little to no chance of catching points - but their fortunes could (and IIRC did in a major way at least once) shift massively off the back of a single P11 result (not even points - because of best finishing position being the tiebreaker).

Edit: FWIW, the broader FIA rules that F1 operate under would still allow for F1 to accept more than 26 entries and bring back pre-qualifying. Unlikely to happen, though, given the FIA's drive to turn F1 into a Franchise sport where the teams are all able to be independently profitable - and thereby permanently secure the future of the sport.

It went to ten places in 2010?! My memory is becoming defunct, I would have sworn it was earlier - mid or late 90's at the latest. I remember when it was only the top 6 getting points but associated that with the Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet era. Maybe because that's when I started watching.

So if there's 13 teams and 26 cars they won't need to pre-qualify? Do teams have to have two cars?

 

[Audax]

It went to ten places in 2010?! My memory is becoming defunct, I would have sworn it was earlier - mid or late 90's at the latest. I remember when it was only the top 6 getting points but associated that with the Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet era. Maybe because that's when I started watching.

And what an era that was. Might help to know that era ran longer than maybe your memory says? Piquet retired after '91, Prost retired at the end of '93. Senna died in '94. Mansell returned from CART at the end of '94 and did a couple of races in '95.

Guessing the big thing is you may have forgotten that they did the step through 8 places first? That delayed getting it out for the full top 10 (I never understood why they went with top 8. Weird number to pick). And the utterly-forgettable-in-the-main (racing-wise) Schumacher domination years won't have helped.

So if there's 13 teams and 26 cars they won't need to pre-qualify? Do teams have to have two cars?

Teams must have 2 cars. Maximum grid size is 26 cars. This is set by a specific formula, which includes looking at the specific circuit(s) they race on. So at the moment, the max grid is set by Monaco (and, if I'm honest, I think they'd struggle to get 13 teams through the pits there with today's size cars!). If, however, Monaco drops off the calendar (as has been rumoured as a strong possibility) then the max grid could increase upwards. Or, if the FIA decides there would be value in more than 13 teams they could change the rules and instead of using the formula to set the max grid for the whole season instead use the formula on a race-by-race basis and we could have, say, 28 car grids for most of the season but 26 (and some form of pre-qualifying) at specific circuits where the formula says 26 is the max.

Edit: just checked, as I wanted to make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me. 1992 was the last season to use pre-qualifying. There were 32 cars entered at the start of the season. Only 30 were allowed to progress beyond pre-qualifying and take part in practice and qualifying. After qualifying, only the fastest 26 started the race. That was the season of the utterly pointless "Andrea Moda" team who only got through to qualifying once, actually made the grid that race (Monaco), then retired with an engine failure after 11 laps. Andrea Moda ultimately failed to see out the season and there's never been a need for PQ since. 1993 was the last season (due to a silly rule change in 1993 setting max grid at 25 cars; that was revoked before season end) where any cars failed to qualify because of the max grid size. From there, the only reason to DNQ was being too slow (the 107% rule, brought in for 1996 to ensure cars/drivers who qualified were quick enough, which was needed due to the number of entries being 26 or fewer). Through the end of 2002 this would happen a few times each season, then even that stopped when the 107% rule was dropped due to qualifying format changes. The rule was brought back for 2011, and the troubled HRT team promptly failed to qualify either car for round 1. They repeated the trick the following year. 107% rule has been broken many more times since it was brought back, but the drivers were allowed to race because the current version of the rule gives the stewards discretion to also look at practice times when assessing whether a car is "fast enough" to race - allowing them to account for drivers making mistakes or encountering trouble during qualifying.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Blimey, I'm getting old, I remember the days when if you didn't qualify within, what was it, a percentage or set figure of the fastest car you were out.

 

[Audax]

Blimey, I'm getting old, I remember the days when if you didn't qualify within, what was it, a percentage or set figure of the fastest car you were out.

Heh, you replied while I was editing in a big old paragraph about just that! 107% rule, it was. Actually still exists today (only for Q1 session), but there's a lot of flexibility built into it. Lance Stroll at the 2021 French GP was the last to technically trigger the rule, but was allowed to race because the only reason he failed to set a fast enough time was due to a) exceeding track limits and having his first time deleted, and b) then being unable to complete a second flying lap due to Mick Schumacher crashing and the session being ended early. He may also have had another attempt curtailed when Tsunoda crashed earlier in the session.

It's actually really hard to trigger the 107% rule today, because the teams are all much more competitive than was the case historically. I would argue (despite Williams' fall from grace) the grids of the last few years have been the strongest, in terms of how close the teams are, ever in Formula 1.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Heh, you replied while I was editing in a big old paragraph about just that! 107% rule, it was. Actually still exists today (only for Q1 session), but there's a lot of flexibility built into it. Lance Stroll at the 2021 French GP was the last to technically trigger the rule, but was allowed to race because the only reason he failed to set a fast enough time was due to a) exceeding track limits and having his first time deleted, and b) then being unable to complete a second flying lap due to Mick Schumacher crashing and the session being ended early. He may also have had another attempt curtailed when Tsunoda crashed earlier in the session.

It's actually really hard to trigger the 107% rule today, because the teams are all much more competitive than was the case historically. I would argue (despite Williams' fall from grace) the grids of the last few years have been the strongest, in terms of how close the teams are, ever in Formula 1.

I remember that too, Martin often brings that up. A 100 second qualifying pole lap you'd have to be within 107 secs - 7 seconds in a qualy lap in F1 these days as you say is huge, but if conditions rapidly change in Q1, such as rain comes in and you didn't get a lap in, entirely possible to miss out.

 

[Audax]

I remember that too, Martin often brings that up. A 100 second qualifying pole lap you'd have to be within 107 secs - 7 seconds in a qualy lap in F1 these days as you say is huge, but if conditions rapidly change in Q1, such as rain comes in and you didn't get a lap in, entirely possible to miss out.

Current version of the Rule is auto ignored if a session is wet at any point.

 

[Flagship]

Boring.
I stopped watching years ago when Coulthard stopped on the finish line to let a team mate win.
Cheating.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Boring.
I stopped watching years ago when Coulthard stopped on the finish line to let a team mate win.
Cheating.

Thanks for the update.

 

[Audax]

Alpine car launch will be Feb 16, in London.

Also found confirmation that the AlphaTauri "livery launch" in New York will also include an online release of 2023 car images.

 

[kojak]

Boring.
I stopped watching years ago when Coulthard stopped on the finish line to let a team mate win.
Cheating.

Barrichello did the same for Schumacher Sr at Austria
Fangio would jump in the only car running
It's F1
F1 is anything but boring
Needs to get rid of DRS though