[Other Sport] F1 2022

[Icy Gull]

‘Find me another”, seems to be a standard response.

I’d never claim that LH has only won the number of championships because he had the best cars - equally it is difficult to claim that he would have won them had he not been driving one of the best cars on the grid. F1 is not all about the drivers, they are simply one part of a very large team of people and credit needs to be given equally, or more so, to those amazing engineers and designers who produce a car that enables a driver to compete on the track with their skill set.

Yes, all the drivers in an F1 race are amazing and at the top of their profession but the guys who produce the cars have a much greater claim to winning a championship than the single person sat behind the wheel.

You’d be wasting your time searching for many more words of praise about LH, but you know that


Funny how people like Max and Lewis blow away their partners. Russell is in the balance. Max however is the only driver for Red Bull, Perez is not allowed to race him. Mercs let their drivers race until one gets a decent lead and is in competition with any other marque in the title race

It is NOT 100% down to the car as you and MB seem to be suggesting although it is a necessary advantage to win an F1 title. Fernando would have won more if that wasn’t the case

 

[Audax]

I’d never claim that LH has only won the number of championships because he had the best cars - equally it is difficult to claim that he would have won them had he not been driving one of the best cars on the grid. F1 is not all about the drivers, they are simply one part of a very large team of people and credit needs to be given equally, or more so, to those amazing engineers and designers who produce a car that enables a driver to compete on the track with their skill set.

Yes, all the drivers in an F1 race are amazing and at the top of their profession but the guys who produce the cars have a much greater claim to winning a championship than the single person sat behind the wheel.

All very true. F1 is as much a car-design category as it is a driver category. However, the importance of the drivers cannot be underestimated either. The history of the sport is littered with drivers who had WCC / WDC capable cars but couldn't get the job done (usually in the face of a superior team mate, but often in the face of a superior driver in a slightly inferior car making the difference). Webber, Barrichello, Massa, Irvine, Coulthard - all had WCC / WDC capable cars for more than 1 season but couldn't win a WDC title. And that's just the first 5 that come to mind. On the other hand, there's drivers who just can't seem to stop winning WDCs if the equipment is good enough - Hamilton, Schumacher, Vettel, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Stewart, Brabham, Lauda. And some who have simply not had the car for long enough and thus not won as many titles as they should have - Alonso springs to mind. And others who we'll never know if they were good enough or not because they never had the car that would get them the results.

I'd argue there's only been 3 seasons where Hamilton has had a title-worthy car and he hasn't won the WDC. The first was his rookie season, where both he and Alonso got pipped by Raikkonen due to the internal team issues at McLaren. The second was the season Rosberg won it - partly due to poor reliability in Hamilton's car at key times and partly due to Hamilton being off-form early in the season. The third was last year, and we all know he was robbed. He's had 10 potential WDC seasons and converted 7 of them - that's the sign of a high quality driver.

 

[Icy Gull]

All very true. F1 is as much a car-design category as it is a driver category. However, the importance of the drivers cannot be underestimated either. The history of the sport is littered with drivers who had WCC / WDC capable cars but couldn't get the job done (usually in the face of a superior team mate, but often in the face of a superior driver in a slightly inferior car making the difference). Webber, Barrichello, Massa, Irvine, Coulthard - all had WCC / WDC capable cars for more than 1 season but couldn't win a WDC title. And that's just the first 5 that come to mind. On the other hand, there's drivers who just can't seem to stop winning WDCs if the equipment is good enough - Hamilton, Schumacher, Vettel, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Stewart, Brabham, Lauda. And some who have simply not had the car for long enough and thus not won as many titles as they should have - Alonso springs to mind. And others who we'll never know if they were good enough or not because they never had the car that would get them the results.

I'd argue there's only been 3 seasons where Hamilton has had a title-worthy car and he hasn't won the WDC. The first was his rookie season, where both he and Alonso got pipped by Raikkonen due to the internal team issues at McLaren. The second was the season Rosberg won it - partly due to poor reliability in Hamilton's car at key times and partly due to Hamilton being off-form early in the season. The third was last year, and we all know he was robbed. He's had 10 potential WDC seasons and converted 7 of them - that's the sign of a high quality driver.

I shouldn’t have bothered with my last post. You have put it much better than I managed

 

[Bold Seagull]

‘Find me another”, seems to be a standard response.

I’d never claim that LH has only won the number of championships because he had the best cars - equally it is difficult to claim that he would have won them had he not been driving one of the best cars on the grid. F1 is not all about the drivers, they are simply one part of a very large team of people and credit needs to be given equally, or more so, to those amazing engineers and designers who produce a car that enables a driver to compete on the track with their skill set.

Yes, all the drivers in an F1 race are amazing and at the top of their profession but the guys who produce the cars have a much greater claim to winning a championship than the single person sat behind the wheel.

Same as it ever was. Someone who doesn't think F1 is about the car doesn't understand F1 or the history of it. You don't design, develop and build the best car then think to yourself 'it doesn't really matter who we put in this' - absolutely throughout history the team with the best car looks to put the best driver in it and that is where the best driver wants to be.

Ferrari arguably have the best car this year. They don't have the best driver though, and having the best car will be a footnote in history for them at this rate. This is why Hamilton has remained at Mercedes so long. You don't develop the best package and not retain the best driver. We can go back through F1 history, Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher, whoever you want to talk about - they were rarely not in the fastest car. Fangio pretty much negotiated a yearly contract to ensure he was always in the fastest car the following season.

So the car is absolutely vital, to watch F1 and think anything else would be fanciful, but we are watching right now what can happen if you don't have the best driver in it. The driver does absolutely make the difference when you get down to the fine margins.

 

[Audax]

Same as it ever was. Someone who doesn't think F1 is about the car doesn't understand F1 or the history of it. You don't design, develop and build the best car then think to yourself 'it doesn't really matter who we put in this' - absolutely throughout history the team with the best car looks to put the best driver in it and that is where the best driver wants to be.

Ferrari arguably have the best car this year. They don't have the best driver though, and having the best car will be a footnote in history for them at this rate. This is why Hamilton has remained at Mercedes so long. You don't develop the best package and not retain the best driver. We can go back through F1 history, Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher, whoever you want to talk about - they were rarely not in the fastest car. Fangio pretty much negotiated a yearly contract to ensure he was always in the fastest car the following season.

So the car is absolutely vital, to watch F1 and think anything else would be fanciful, but we are watching right now what can happen if you don't have the best driver in it. The driver does absolutely make the difference when you get down to the fine margins.

Big question marks still to be answered with Leclerc. He's quality. He's showing that, he's raced wheel-to-wheel with Verstappen this season and kept it clean. He's definitely got the 1 lap pace that matters in Q. Where the questions still need to be answered are if he's able to iron out the mistakes and string together a season that is worthy of a WDC.

I'm willing to give him a "pass" this year. He's got a car that's quick enough (it's nip-and-tuck whether the Ferrari or the Red Bull is the quicker car ultimately IMO, and I think it depends on circuit and upgrade timings so far this season). What he doesn't have is a car that's reliable enough, and that's put him in a position where he needs to push the boundaries if he's to make up lost ground. That's ripe territory for mistakes, especially for a young driver in his first F1 WDC fight.

Absolutely agree, though, this season is genuinely showing us the difference a driver can make. On one hand you've got Verstappen maximising every opportunity, using the experience he's gained in the last couple of seasons. On the other you've got Leclerc, who's thrown away a lot of points through errors already (in addition to those lost to reliability). But then there's their team mates as well. Just look at Perez, beaten easily by Hamilton in an inferior car and then mugged by Russell at the end. Now that Hamilton isn't playing the experimental guinea pig, he's starting to show exactly where Russell is at (pleasingly close, but still not quite Hamilton standard). And then looking down the grid - McLaren would dearly love Ricciardo to find his form and at least match Norris (suspect he was expected to be the quicker driver when signed). And Alpine would dearly love to have a second Alonso.

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

Leclerc commits harakiri, Sainz taken out by the Ferrari pasta gun pulled into the pits from 3rd place. The red team living up to their clown status.

 

[Creaky]

Same as it ever was. Someone who doesn't think F1 is about the car doesn't understand F1 or the history of it. You don't design, develop and build the best car then think to yourself 'it doesn't really matter who we put in this' - absolutely throughout history the team with the best car looks to put the best driver in it and that is where the best driver wants to be.

Ferrari arguably have the best car this year. They don't have the best driver though, and having the best car will be a footnote in history for them at this rate. This is why Hamilton has remained at Mercedes so long. You don't develop the best package and not retain the best driver. We can go back through F1 history, Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher, whoever you want to talk about - they were rarely not in the fastest car. Fangio pretty much negotiated a yearly contract to ensure he was always in the fastest car the following season.

So the car is absolutely vital, to watch F1 and think anything else would be fanciful, but we are watching right now what can happen if you don't have the best driver in it. The driver does absolutely make the difference when you get down to the fine margins.

100% agree with this. Change the drivers around in the cars and you wouldn’t end with the same cars winning. F1 drivers are all different with varying levels of skill, courage, and fitness. It is the combination of car and driver that determines which team wins.

Unfortunately the drivers get all the kudos or criticism, depending on the results as though they are the critical factor.

LH hasn’t won the championship so many times only because of the car he was driving but likewise Mercedes hasn’t won the constructor’s so many times only because of the drivers in their cars. The quality of the car influences the points gained just as much as the quality of the driver does.

In many ways the Tifosi have got it right in supporting the team rather than any individual. I support the Albion not any individual player.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Big question marks still to be answered with Leclerc. He's quality. He's showing that, he's raced wheel-to-wheel with Verstappen this season and kept it clean. He's definitely got the 1 lap pace that matters in Q. Where the questions still need to be answered are if he's able to iron out the mistakes and string together a season that is worthy of a WDC.

I'm willing to give him a "pass" this year. He's got a car that's quick enough (it's nip-and-tuck whether the Ferrari or the Red Bull is the quicker car ultimately IMO, and I think it depends on circuit and upgrade timings so far this season). What he doesn't have is a car that's reliable enough, and that's put him in a position where he needs to push the boundaries if he's to make up lost ground. That's ripe territory for mistakes, especially for a young driver in his first F1 WDC fight.

Absolutely agree, though, this season is genuinely showing us the difference a driver can make. On one hand you've got Verstappen maximising every opportunity, using the experience he's gained in the last couple of seasons. On the other you've got Leclerc, who's thrown away a lot of points through errors already (in addition to those lost to reliability). But then there's their team mates as well. Just look at Perez, beaten easily by Hamilton in an inferior car and then mugged by Russell at the end. Now that Hamilton isn't playing the experimental guinea pig, he's starting to show exactly where Russell is at (pleasingly close, but still not quite Hamilton standard). And then looking down the grid - McLaren would dearly love Ricciardo to find his form and at least match Norris (suspect he was expected to be the quicker driver when signed). And Alpine would dearly love to have a second Alonso.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but my feelings toward Leclerc are this is his 4th season at Ferrari, his 92nd grand prix, he's 24 - you don't get many chances in an F1 career to be in the fastest car and you have to grab the opportunity. I think both Alonso and Schumacher were around the same age / experience when both suddenly had a fast Renault, and both took advantage. You can have incidents, bad strategy calls, bad luck with punctures or mechanicals, but what you can't do is drop it out on your own on track. He's undoubtedly fast, but if I was at Ferrari I would be concerned about delivering the fastest package on the track but not having drivers that can deliver a WDC. He's gifted RB the ability to have some poor weekends, engine penalties etc. and still cruise to this title.

 

[Audax]

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but my feelings toward Leclerc are this is his 4th season at Ferrari, his 92nd grand prix, he's 24 - you don't get many chances in an F1 career to be in the fastest car and you have to grab the opportunity. I think both Alonso and Schumacher were around the same age / experience when both suddenly had a fast Renault, and both took advantage. You can have incidents, bad strategy calls, bad luck with punctures or mechanicals, but what you can't do is drop it out on your own on track. He's undoubtedly fast, but if I was at Ferrari I would be concerned about delivering the fastest package on the track but not having drivers that can deliver a WDC. He's gifted RB the ability to have some poor weekends, engine penalties etc. and still cruise to this title.

He has - but he's done that from a position where Ferrari's own failures (both reliability and poor strategy calls) have put him under an awful lot of pressure to make up ground. I'm pretty sure he's going to be facing more grid penalties later in the season as well, that'll be playing on his mind a fair bit.

By my count, prior to the French GP Leclerc had lost 7 points through driver error (Imola) and as much as 77 through Ferrari reliability or dodgy strategy calls. French GP pushes the Leclerc loss to 32, but in the context of the position Ferrari had put him in you can see why - the team have put him in a position where he cannot afford to drop points and thus needed to push hard in those laps post-Verstappen stop. It was a small error with a big cost attached. Assigning a 25 point loss to Leclerc may be harsh here as well, I'm not convinced he would have beaten Verstappen on the strategy Ferrari were taking (they were banking on being able to overtake Verstappen on track despite having a higher downforce setup and thus slower on the straights).

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Some cracking posts on this thread. One of the most enjoyable on NSC. For what it's worth, I think Leclerc is top draw but the Ferrari isn't quite as quick as the Red Bull in race pace most of the time and the strategy calls Ferrari make are Kevin Keegan esque. Schumacher had the strength of personality to sort all that out but no one has had that since and Leclerc doesn't strike me as the type to make it his team either.

If Ferrarri were better behind the scenes, I think Leclerc would make fewer mistakes. He certainly has got the pace to win over the course of a season.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Some cracking posts on this thread. One of the most enjoyable on NSC. For what it's worth, I think Leclerc is top draw but the Ferrari isn't quite as quick as the Red Bull in race pace most of the time and the strategy calls Ferrari make are Kevin Keegan esque. Schumacher had the strength of personality to sort all that out but no one has had that since and Leclerc doesn't strike me as the type to make it his team either.

If Ferrarri were better behind the scenes, I think Leclerc would make fewer mistakes. He certainly has got the pace to win over the course of a season.

Poles:
Ferrari 8
Red Bull 4

Fastest laps:
Ferrari 5
Red Bull 5

Podiums:
Ferrari 11
Red Bull 15

Retirements:
Ferrari 7
Red Bull 3

I don't know, as [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] points out, Ferrari have made errors in strategy, driver errors, and mechanicals that have impacted their season. I think they have the faster car both in qualifying and in races, they just don't have a Max Verstappen behind the wheel, and have a sketchy team on the pit wall too. Leclerc comes across as very emotional to me, we've heard other drivers like Max and Lewis be irritated / frustrated, but they rarely seem to come across as emotional. It's like the whole of Ferrari is on edge.

 

[Icy Gull]

Poles:
Ferrari 8
Red Bull 4

Fastest laps:
Ferrari 5
Red Bull 5

Podiums:
Ferrari 11
Red Bull 15

Retirements:
Ferrari 7
Red Bull 3

I don't know, as [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] points out, Ferrari have made errors in strategy, driver errors, and mechanicals that have impacted their season. I think they have the faster car both in qualifying and in races, they just don't have a Max Verstappen behind the wheel, and have a sketchy team on the pit wall too. Leclerc comes across as very emotional to me, we've heard other drivers like Max and Lewis be irritated / frustrated, but they rarely seem to come across as emotional. It's like the whole of Ferrari is on edge.

It's an Italian thing, I love Ferrari, their passion and ability to completely feck things up. Since Ross Brawn and Schumacher it happens every year! Fernando, Vettel and Le Clerc

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Poles:
Ferrari 8
Red Bull 4

Fastest laps:
Ferrari 5
Red Bull 5

Podiums:
Ferrari 11
Red Bull 15

Retirements:
Ferrari 7
Red Bull 3

I don't know, as [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] points out, Ferrari have made errors in strategy, driver errors, and mechanicals that have impacted their season. I think they have the faster car both in qualifying and in races, they just don't have a Max Verstappen behind the wheel, and have a sketchy team on the pit wall too. Leclerc comes across as very emotional to me, we've heard other drivers like Max and Lewis be irritated / frustrated, but they rarely seem to come across as emotional. It's like the whole of Ferrari is on edge.

In qualifying Ferrarri certainly have a quick car but other than Austria in recent weeks it seems to be that Red Bull have the edge in the race or more specifically a Max Verstappen driven Red Bull.

They all have their moments emotional in the car when things are going badly but Max has made very few mistakes - he seems to have matured a bit - and Lewis isn't close enough to the front to get bent out of shape. The sliding doors moment for me was the championship last year. If Max had lost that, I think we'd be seeing a much more on edge driver. As it is, he has been largely faultless

As for Ferrarri, The Sainz strategy was amateur hour stuff and sums them up. In a world of data driven analytics I'm shocked how bad they are at it.

.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's an Italian thing, I love Ferrari, their passion and ability to completely feck things up. Since Ross Brawn and Schumacher it happens every year! Fernando, Vettel and Le Clerc

2008, 2012, 2018, 2022 - it does seem like a pattern has emerged since Kimi in 2007!

 

[Audax]

Poles:
Ferrari 8
Red Bull 4

Fastest laps:
Ferrari 5
Red Bull 5

Podiums:
Ferrari 11
Red Bull 15

Retirements:
Ferrari 7
Red Bull 3

I don't know, as [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] points out, Ferrari have made errors in strategy, driver errors, and mechanicals that have impacted their season. I think they have the faster car both in qualifying and in races, they just don't have a Max Verstappen behind the wheel, and have a sketchy team on the pit wall too. Leclerc comes across as very emotional to me, we've heard other drivers like Max and Lewis be irritated / frustrated, but they rarely seem to come across as emotional. It's like the whole of Ferrari is on edge.

I think whether Red Bull or Ferrari is the fastest car is pretty tight, and actually circuit dependent. Red Bull appear to have the edge on race pace on circuits where top speed is advantageous. Ferrari, on the other hand, have an edge where that isn't the case. There's also been a few shifts back and forth depending on how each circuit impacts on tyre life. There's been some races where Ferrari have found their tyres have lost performance earlier than Red Bull, and that affects their ability to fight Verstappen.

Having said that: if Ferrari had given Leclerc similar reliability of both car and strategy as Verstappen has had, I think the title fight would currently be on a knife edge with just a handful of points between them.

I'd also argue on the mental side, Verstappen is currently benefiting from the experience of 2019/2020 (not in the title fight ultimately, but often in the fight for wins), and then 2021. He was most definitely an emotionally driven driver previously, and it often led to him throwing away points during races with mistakes (even in 2021, I'd argue some of his racing with Hamilton - in particular Monza - was emotionally derived). Leclerc, as much as he's been in that Ferrari for a while and has some experience behind him, he doesn't yet have the experience of fighting for (and winning) a WDC in Formula 1. You can see how his frustration levels have built with each consecutive race where Ferrari have let him down. He knows he has a title-worthy car on pace, he knows he himself has title-worthy pace, but reliability and strategy have seen him go from a commanding lead to a massive deficit. France is the result of that IMO, and I reckon had he gone into the French race ahead on points, or just a handful behind, that crash would not have happened.

 

[Audax]

Poles:
Ferrari 8
Red Bull 4

Fastest laps:
Ferrari 5
Red Bull 5

Podiums:
Ferrari 11
Red Bull 15

Retirements:
Ferrari 7
Red Bull 3

I don't know, as [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] points out, Ferrari have made errors in strategy, driver errors, and mechanicals that have impacted their season. I think they have the faster car both in qualifying and in races, they just don't have a Max Verstappen behind the wheel, and have a sketchy team on the pit wall too. Leclerc comes across as very emotional to me, we've heard other drivers like Max and Lewis be irritated / frustrated, but they rarely seem to come across as emotional. It's like the whole of Ferrari is on edge.

I think whether Red Bull or Ferrari is the fastest car is pretty tight, and actually circuit dependent. Red Bull appear to have the edge on race pace on circuits where top speed is advantageous. Ferrari, on the other hand, have an edge where that isn't the case. There's also been a few shifts back and forth depending on how each circuit impacts on tyre life. There's been some races where Ferrari have found their tyres have lost performance earlier than Red Bull, and that affects their ability to fight Verstappen.

Having said that: if Ferrari had given Leclerc similar reliability of both car and strategy as Verstappen has had, I think the title fight would currently be on a knife edge with just a handful of points between them.

I'd also argue on the mental side, Verstappen is currently benefiting from the experience of 2019/2020 (not in the title fight ultimately, but often in the fight for wins), and then 2021. He was most definitely an emotionally driven driver previously, and it often led to him throwing away points during races with mistakes (even in 2021, I'd argue some of his racing with Hamilton - in particular Monza - was emotionally derived). Leclerc, as much as he's been in that Ferrari for a while and has some experience behind him, he doesn't yet have the experience of fighting for (and winning) a WDC in Formula 1. You can see how his frustration levels have built with each consecutive race where Ferrari have let him down. He knows he has a title-worthy car on pace, he knows he himself has title-worthy pace, but reliability and strategy have seen him go from a commanding lead to a massive deficit. France is the result of that IMO, and I reckon had he gone into the French race ahead on points, or just a handful behind, that crash would not have happened.

 

[JackB247]

Vettel has retired - sad to see him go but he's been a shadow of the driver than won the 4 titles since the Championship loss to Lewis in 2018.

Interested to see what he does next, especially after his brilliant Question Time appearance a couple of months back.

 

[Icy Gull]

Vettel has retired - sad to see him go but he's been a shadow of the driver than won the 4 titles since the Championship loss to Lewis in 2018.

Interested to see what he does next, especially after his brilliant Question Time appearance a couple of months back.

Red Bull tie up with Porsche is going ahead to it seems

 

[Audax]

Vettel has retired - sad to see him go but he's been a shadow of the driver than won the 4 titles since the Championship loss to Lewis in 2018.

Interested to see what he does next, especially after his brilliant Question Time appearance a couple of months back.

More on why he's retired here: https://the-race.com/formula-1/vettel-explains-f1-retirement-reasons-in-heartfelt-statement/

And with that, silly season for 2023 will now get very much under way. That Aston martin seat is a solid mid-grid seat. Would someone like, say, Ricciardo (despite his recent protestations that he's staying at McLaren) be looking at that seat and thinking "I could do better with that car than Vettel has" and wondering about what Aston Martin can produce in future years (they've been investing heavily in future capability). Or will Aston move to try to secure the services of the hottest prospect not yet in an F1 race seat (Piastri)?

 

[JJ McClure]

Feels like we have watched Vettel grow up during his F1 career. From that arrogant, ruthless ('multi 21 Seb') finger wagger at Red Bull (maybe its a Red Bull thing that makes people so unlikeable), to the father figure equal rights, political activist we see today.
He may have had the best car during those championship years, but my word didn't he make best use of it. Just remember it being a case of once he took the lead it was pretty much game over for the win.