[Misc] F1 2021

[Marty___Mcfly]

Max is basically in a no lose situation if he qualifies around Lewis. He can and will take any risk because if they both go off he wins. He has driven without fear of the consequences all season. I’d be interested in the stats on how many times Lewis has had to back off this season, we must be close to or around 10.

If Lewis can pull this off it will be astounding as he has had to drive knowing that his main rival is a great driver but also one he cannot take any risks against. I already think he’s the GOAT but win this season and even his harshest critics would have to accept it, wouldn’t they?

Damon Hill rightly pointed out there is precedent for points deduction if one driver takes the other out. When Schumacher tried it (again) on Villeneuve in the last race of the 1997 season- the FIA deducted all of Schumacher’s points for the entire season.

So- possibly Max will think twice before trying to take Lewis out in Abu Dhabi. But- I wouldn’t put it past him to continue driving in the same fashion he has all season- which could lead to a collision.

 

[Audax]

Correct outcome re: Max getting a penalty (although it doesn't change much) for the brake test incident.

However: Why the flap was Hamilton tucked right up under his gearbox there in the first place? Talk about putting yourself in the optimum position to get into trouble... Even if he was thoroughly confused about what was going on (Masi needs to do some self-reflection on this one as well - his handling of the race was piss-poor), surely as a top-level racing driver he should have the smarts to have off-set himself against Verstappen to remove any risk.

Anyway: now made my decision. Backing Hamilton to take the title. Verstappen doesn't deserve it after that race. He needs to lose it, and then figure out for himself why he lost it (his own decision making on track).

To be honest, I'm loving the title battle. I'm not particularly keen on either driver. It'd be a lot easier if, say, it was Ricciardo, Norris, or Russell sat in Verstappen's car - I'd back all 3 of those ahead of Hamilton. Or any of those 3 in Hamilton's car, again I'd back them ahead of Verstappen. As much as Hamilton has matured a fair bit, and learned from his past mistakes, there's still elements of his personality I don't like. Much like Verstappen, he seems incapable of taking blame in any incident he's involved in. And the way he moans to his team on the radio sometimes - I agree with Bozza, it's not a great look. Finally, while it was a long time ago now: I can never forget him playing the race card in reaction to getting a penalty from the stewards. On the other had: Verstappen is even worse. He's a spoiled little brat in the car. Has a "I can do no wrong" streak a mile wide. He's the very opposite of a team player, petulance personified if ever asked to cede position to a team mate. Have to admit I was stunned that he accepted going back to P3 on the grid for the restart (I figured he would prefer to start first and back himself to maintain a 5s gap on Hamilton rather than be asked to make the pass on track).

For those who are confused about what happened with that Verstappen going back to P3 for the restart, and seem to think it was the race director / stewards favouring Red Bull/Verstappen: it totally wasn't. It was just them contriving a way to do during the red flag what they would have asked Red Bull to do on track if there hadn't been a red flag. They do it regularly for all driver, with no favour. If a pass is made where they believe an unfair advantage was gained, they will ask for the driver to cede the position before referring it to the stewards. It happened during the race with the Ferrari's (Leclerc and Sainz, where Leclerc had to ceded position to Sainz after going off and retaining position when Sainz tried to pass him). It happened at COTA with Sainz and Norris. And Ocon avoided Masi even needing to suggest it on the restart when he ceded position to Verstappen immediately. All the drivers and teams know that they have the option of ceding position before a penalty is applied. The only oddity about it in the Verstappen case is that the immediate red flag meant they couldn't do it the normal way and had to negotiate an alternative with Red Bull.

 

[Bozza]

It's a great soap opera though, and it feels like it's given F1's profile a real boost.

Good job there's the small matter of the Ashes this week to help keep the mind occupied ahead of next weekend...

 

[zefarelly]

Stopping in the middle of a straight, in the middle of the track, with a G force of 2.4 ? Isn't that what most people with a licence to drive cars, would consider 'an emergency stop' ?

yes, yes it is . . . .I have raced at Spa with a GPS thing and Lap timer app in the car. the most it'll pull is 1.5G. Asides cornering forces the big G spots ( oo-err Mrs) are Eu Rouge and through blancement flat out and stopping for the silly chicane ( 115-20mph)

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Damon Hill rightly pointed out there is precedent for points deduction if one driver takes the other out. When Schumacher tried it (again) on Villeneuve in the last race of the 1997 season- the FIA deducted all of Schumacher’s points for the entire season.

So- possibly Max will think twice before trying to take Lewis out in Abu Dhabi. But- I wouldn’t put it past him to continue driving in the same fashion he has all season- which could lead to a collision.

I wonder if Perez will find himself about 20 - 25 seconds behind Lewis at around the time of the first pit stop. Accidents can happen after pit lane exits!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Brake testing has not been proved yet, could it just be Merc f*ced up communication to Lewis?

Stewards ruling plus a good post from [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] shows it was probably both. Hamilton's team should have told him - there were 4 turns between decision and incident - and then Lewis might have backed off (which he should have anyway). But looking at the data, brake testing was exactly what Max did and in an incredibly dangerous manner, given what had happened in the F2 race where there was a stalled car at the start (and also to Mazepin in the F1 race).

There is no room round that circuit at all for funny business.

Long term the FIA need to look at whether there should be a rule on handing back places only "N" turns away from a DRS zone as handing it back and immediately getting a natural slipstream and DRS isn't actually handing it back at all.

 

[zefarelly]

Stewards ruling plus a good post from [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] shows it was probably both. Hamilton's team should have told him - there were 4 turns between decision and incident - and then Lewis might have backed off (which he should have anyway). But looking at the data, brake testing was exactly what Max did and in an incredibly dangerous manner, given what had happened in the F2 race where there was a stalled car at the start (and also to Mazepin in the F1 race).

There is no room round that circuit at all for funny business.

Long term the FIA need to look at whether there should be a rule on handing back places only "N" turns away from a DRS zone as handing it back and immediately getting a natural slipstream and DRS isn't actually handing it back at all.

Can race control 'control' DRS remotely or is it purely driver ?

 

[Shippers]

Damon Hill rightly pointed out there is precedent for points deduction if one driver takes the other out. When Schumacher tried it (again) on Villeneuve in the last race of the 1997 season- the FIA deducted all of Schumacher’s points for the entire season.

So- possibly Max will think twice before trying to take Lewis out in Abu Dhabi. But- I wouldn’t put it past him to continue driving in the same fashion he has all season- which could lead to a collision.

I hope it doesn't end in the gravel, but if Crashstappen does what he has been doing all his career and doesn't yield even when beat in a corner then he must be stripped of some points.
Nobody can get near the front but if it was VB yesterday passing MV, I wonder if MV would have backed out or brake checked him?

Max;

"I find it interesting I am the one who gets penalised when both of us ran outside the white lines. In Brazil it was fine and now suddenly I get a penalty for it."
"You could clearly see we both didn't make the corner....."

Christian Horner said he felt the penalty was "harsh", adding: "Is he [Verstappen] solely to blame if two drivers run off track?"

Can't CH or MV see or acknowledge Lewis left the track yesterday (& in Brazil) to avoid a collision? I have lost a lot of respect for both this season, there views are so delusional. Sometimes they just need to say yeah MV ran deep in corner and LH did well to avoid a crash, we accept the penalty it was a fair decision.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Stewards ruling plus a good post from [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] shows it was probably both. Hamilton's team should have told him - there were 4 turns between decision and incident - and then Lewis might have backed off (which he should have anyway). But looking at the data, brake testing was exactly what Max did and in an incredibly dangerous manner, given what had happened in the F2 race where there was a stalled car at the start (and also to Mazepin in the F1 race).

There is no room round that circuit at all for funny business.

Long term the FIA need to look at whether there should be a rule on handing back places only "N" turns away from a DRS zone as handing it back and immediately getting a natural slipstream and DRS isn't actually handing it back at all.

The wasn't really room for an F1 grand prix let alone funny business.

What was quite amusing on reflection, is letting Lewis pass #1; brake tests and causes a collision, pass #2; barely let's him pass then retakes position unfairly, pass #3; didn't actually need to let him pass as he'd been docked 5 secs by then anyway!

In a way, the 'brake test' incident has detracted from 2 or 3 bad lunges into turns 1 & 2 where Lewis was well ahead and Verstappen just arrows it into the run off area. He completed 1 clean move on the 3rd restart, other than that I'm surprised he's got away with the number of times he did it.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Can race control 'control' DRS remotely or is it purely driver ?

I assume the detection is either on for everyone or no one - in a wet to dry race it's turned on when safe. I think. I don't have the rules in front of me.

Turning it off in a blanket way would potentially penalise other drivers further down the field.

I suspect all slightly muddied by the fact that teams can choose to hand back a place instead of a referral to stewards.

 

[drew]

If the strategy changes mid race it must be incredibly difficult to weigh up what the options are and which one is the best while racing at 160mph. LH is going to question it with good reason as once the race is on only he can get the car over the line.

I think I have always supported every British driver in F1 over the years and I really admire LH for making it to multiple World Championships. I'm fully behind him using his position to highlight BLM and other causes as he sees fit. Apart from the tattoos, he is an amazing role model and I hope he can win the final race in Abu Dhabi ..... GO Lewis!

Agree.

 

[zefarelly]

I was wondering if race control could order a drive by and disable one cars DRS for a lap just to be sure.

to spice things up in for the last race we need pike nuts on the wheels and stingers, randomly deployed on the circuit.

and intermittent Hail storms too.

 

[drew]

Damon Hill rightly pointed out there is precedent for points deduction if one driver takes the other out. When Schumacher tried it (again) on Villeneuve in the last race of the 1997 season- the FIA deducted all of Schumacher’s points for the entire season.

So- possibly Max will think twice before trying to take Lewis out in Abu Dhabi. But- I wouldn’t put it past him to continue driving in the same fashion he has all season- which could lead to a collision.

Situation slightly different though as it didn't decide the drivers championship as Schumacher failed to take out Villeneuve who finished the race and gained enough points to win the championship.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Situation slightly different though as it didn't decide the drivers championship as Schumacher failed to take out Villeneuve who finished the race and gained enough points to win the championship.

I think Hill was making the assumption that had Villeneuve been taken out, he still would have won the championship given Schumacher had the penalty. The precedent being that a points deduction is possible for intentionally taking out another driver.

He must be on thin ice now after the recent races. It's like the player that has put in 2 or 3 questionable fouls and not yet been booked, the 4th foul may be minor compared to the other 3, but the referee has had enough and books him anyway.

 

[Audax]

He must be on thin ice now after the recent races.

He is, although I'm not sure the "rulebook" allows them to do what they did with Schumacher anymore, as they've completely revamped the system since then and from memory it's now more prescriptive in terms of what sort of penalties the stewards can hand out. From memory they might have a "special circumstances" clause they allows them to act outside the rulebook, but I'm not certain they still do. We could see it played out in appeals.

However, he's now on 7 penalty points in the last 12 months and the fact they gave him 2 for this incident suggests to me they've had enough. It's 12 for an automatic race ban, which means he's going to need to be careful or he's going to run the risk of a race ban early in 2022 - I can see any "deliberate" attempt to end the race for Hamilton (and thus win the title) will see him handed at least 3 penalty points, and that puts him right on the edge.

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

Maybe instead of giving Max the extra 10 second penalty they should have just deducted him 0.5 points! Would have put Hamilton in the lead and perhaps disincentivised Max taking out LH on the first corner in Abu Dhabi.

Really not sure what I think about Max's overall approach- to me it feels like he has zero respect for the other drivers and any sense of sportsmanship and wants to win at any costs, exploiting any way possible that the rules allow (and will go beyond that). The rules aren't really set up to cope with someone like that, as I think they are written with a underlying idea that drivers will try to respect other drivers and have some sportsmanship, most of the time at least, bar the odd heated moment. I can't remember seeing another driver push things like this so consistently, at every corner he is challenged he is willing to go off to take an advantage or just taken the other driver out as a game of chicken.

Maybe the rules will need to be re-written to address this sort of style of driving / strategy. E.g. it doesn't work asking drivers to give a place back if they do it in such a way that they can re-take again immediately under DRS - zero consequence (not saying it is only Max who has done that). So maybe they change that and just say - if you gain a place by going off track its an automatic time penalty - e.g. a drive through penalty. That might stop it. Then wait for the next rule he starts exploiting and change that, etc.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Probably a bit slow to this, but just noticed the crossover of the football and racing on Sunday. arrgghhhhh

Is there any chance at all of avoiding the result and watching on catch up? Nahh, probably not

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Because some posters in the past, plus predictable parts of the written media, have:

- Slagged off Hamilton for his BLM support, bringing taking the knee to F1; and the same people
- Relentlessly obsessed about LH’s overseas residence, angry about that and the ensuing tax consequences. Often getting their tax facts wildly wrong.

Whilst NOT ONCE EVER mentioning the overseas residence or tax haven status of:
Coultard
Button
Norris
Verstappen
Mansell
Damon Hill
Stewart
Countless UK-born golfers, celebs.

What are the odds of that? Must be something about Lewis.

I have to pull you up here, as none of the list you have put, has ever used their fan base to promote political views.

Maybe Coulthard has been banging on about Scottish independence that I haven't seen


Lewis loves the limelight and you can be assured when leaving the sport he will not be popping off the scene, he will be all over America, strutting his stuff and thanking the crowds, he does actually believe he is the messiah.

Why does he feel the need? just drive fast, keep your gob shut do the business, and everyone we love ya, Lewis.

 

[Weststander]

I have to pull you up here, as none of the list you have put, has ever used their fan base to promote political views.

Maybe Coulthard has been banging on about Scottish independence that I haven't seen


Lewis loves the limelight and you can be assured when leaving the sport he will not be popping off the scene, he will be all over America, strutting his stuff and thanking the crowds, he does actually believe he is the messiah.

Why does he feel the need? just drive fast, keep your gob shut do the business, and everyone we love ya, Lewis.

I think you’ve hit the nail firmly on the head. I often suspected that racists and sports loving racists on these shores thought along the lines of:

“I wish that black gobshite would keep his nose out of race politics. Button didn’t do it. What’s it got to do with him?”.

Possibly also … “He’s lucky that this country gave him an opportunity, so keep fkn quiet”.


The taxes argument is the dead giveaway. Virtually no one slagged off a white-skinned army of tax haven residing UK born n bred sportsmen, actors, celebs.

But with Lewis everyone and his uncle suddenly had an interest in overseas residency.

 

[Weststander]

Probably a bit slow to this, but just noticed the crossover of the football and racing on Sunday. arrgghhhhh

Is there any chance at all of avoiding the result and watching on catch up? Nahh, probably not

We’ll all somehow avoid the Albion score, then try and watch the game on catch-up or a recording.