[Misc] F1 2021

[Bold Seagull]

Delayed reactions, I thought you turned the wheel before you ran out of road not as you ran out of road. Very cool calm and calculated.

Almost liked he'd already decided exactly what was going to happen along the straight after turn 3....

 

[Audax]

Decent analysis here, and I agree with their conclusions: https://the-race.com/formula-1/what-we-learned-from-missing-verstappen-and-hamilton-footage/

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to how much steering lock Verstappen was using at various points in the corner: it's clear he was suffering from under steer from fairly early in the corner. One thing you absolutely *do not* do when under steering is apply more steering lock, because you'll make the problem worse. You can either reduce the steering lock (knowing that this will definitely send you wide) or maintain the lock you already have and hope the tyres regain grip. Once the tyres do start to grip again, that's when you can apply extra lock and get the car turned.

Verstappen chose the latter, which IMO was the right choice with Hamilton on the outside.

 

[Audax]

In other news:

Zhou has been confirmed at Alfa for next season, alongside Bottas. Piastri has therefore been left with a reserve / Friday practice drive at Alpine and will have to cool his heels waiting for Alonso to retire or for Ocon to go through a terminal poor spell of form. All assuming, of course, that Piastri wins the F2 title and thus can't run F2 again next season. Worth noting that he would be the first rookie to win F2 and not get an F1 drive the following year.

 

[Knightsworld]

Mercedes have now put in an appeal.

 

[Nitram]

Seeing that footage of Max in car he does not turn the wheel into the apex. Slam dunk for me.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Decent analysis here, and I agree with their conclusions: https://the-race.com/formula-1/what-we-learned-from-missing-verstappen-and-hamilton-footage/

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to how much steering lock Verstappen was using at various points in the corner: it's clear he was suffering from under steer from fairly early in the corner. One thing you absolutely *do not* do when under steering is apply more steering lock, because you'll make the problem worse. You can either reduce the steering lock (knowing that this will definitely send you wide) or maintain the lock you already have and hope the tyres regain grip. Once the tyres do start to grip again, that's when you can apply extra lock and get the car turned.

Verstappen chose the latter, which IMO was the right choice with Hamilton on the outside.

But their conclusion appears to differ from yours:

Verstappen does fail to hit the apex here, which precedent suggests is therefore relevant. Regardless of what happened, the FIA stewards might well have felt that the unofficial ‘no harm, no foul’ policy that appears to be part of the ‘let them race’ principle still applies – especially as Hamilton did subsequently take the lead.

But the onboard footage does support the notion there is at least a case to answer, although the fact that this incident did not decide the battle between the pair means it could still be shrugged off in retrospect.

What I think is clear is that this wasn't a moment of 'oh no I've understeered into this corner', it's more 'I'll just brake too late, get some understeer and either I hit Lewis or we leave the track and I retain position'. As the article also says, both Norris and Perez have taken penalties into following races for similar incidents.

 

[The Wizard]

How that can be no penalty I will never know, watch the way he takes that corner every other lap, he breaks about 20 meters later than usual and deliberately ran Hamilton out of road, whether he opened the steering or not it’s very clear from that on board he’s not even attempted to make the corner, it was a) accident b) Lewis yields, no other option.

I actually like Verstappen, I love a racing driver with a ruthless streak but for me this HAS to be a penalty, the line has to be drawn. Verstappen didn’t care if he slammed Hamilton out there because he has the lead of the championship, he’s done the same thing pretty much all season, Hamilton most times has used his wisdom and backed out.

This is not understeer it’s NOsteer because he’s not even turned the wheel until it’s far, far too late.

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

The potential "smoking gun" video footage that could see Lewis Hamilton further close the gap to Max Verstappen for the Formula One world championship has been released following Sunday’s São Paulo Grand Prix.

Hamilton’s Mercedes team were furious at the "laughable" decision not to penalise Verstappen after the duo were vying for first place and the Belgian-born World Championship leader was accused of "cramping" Hamilton "off the road" at turn four.

The defending champions have now requested a right of review from the FIA now that the on-board footage of the incident has been released.

Mercedes thought that there should have been at least a five-second penalty, a sanction that would have relegated Verstappen behind Hamilton's team-mate Valtteri Bottas to third.

If this were applied it would reduce his championship advantage over Hamilton from 14 to 11 points.

If the stewards decide to reconvene to examine the new evidence and review their initial decision, it would likely be on the Thursday or Friday in Qatar before this weekend's grand prix in Losail.

No formal investigation was launched in the immediate aftermath of Sunday’s race but FIA race director Michael Masi conceded that Verstappen's forward-facing on-board camera "could be the smoking gun".

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I don't know anything about Zhou. Does he deserve his spot, or he paid for by the Chinese state?

 

[Audax]

But their conclusion appears to differ from yours:

Verstappen does fail to hit the apex here, which precedent suggests is therefore relevant. Regardless of what happened, the FIA stewards might well have felt that the unofficial ‘no harm, no foul’ policy that appears to be part of the ‘let them race’ principle still applies – especially as Hamilton did subsequently take the lead.

But the onboard footage does support the notion there is at least a case to answer, although the fact that this incident did not decide the battle between the pair means it could still be shrugged off in retrospect.

What I think is clear is that this wasn't a moment of 'oh no I've understeered into this corner', it's more 'I'll just brake too late, get some understeer and either I hit Lewis or we leave the track and I retain position'. As the article also says, both Norris and Perez have taken penalties into following races for similar incidents.

When they say "case to answer" they mean "the stewards should have investigated and probably applied a penalty". On which, I agree. The onus was on Verstappen to make the corner and not force Hamilton off track. My point in the post of mine you quote is that Verstappen's actions were not deliberate, but rather a product of making a miscalculation on how much grip his tyres had to give him. That doesn't absolve him of being in the wrong, I just don't like seeing some of the conspiracy theories being posted about him having nefarious intent. If he'd had intent, neither of them would have finished the race - Verstappen knew keeping Hamilton behind was a long shot.

 

[Audax]

I don't know anything about Zhou. Does he deserve his spot, or he paid for by the Chinese state?

He's "good enough", but the answer is that the only reason he's on the grid and Piastri isn't is because of his backing from China and the appeal to Formula 1 as a whole of having the first Chinese driver in F1.

Zhou's won races in F2, and he's second in the standings this year currently. So he's no slouch. But it's also his third season, and he's being beaten by a rookie. Last year he finished 6th, behind Mazepin (5th). I won't be expecting much from him next year. I think the general feeling is that Alfa believe his backing from China will outweigh any prize money losses from poor performance limiting their WCC result, with a view to then dropping him for 2023 and bringing in their own junior (Pourchaire, who's shown flashes of very good speed in his rookie F2 season and will be one to watch for the title next year). But then he may surprise everyone and turn out to be really well suited to F1. It's happened before.

 

[Icy Gull]

When they say "case to answer" they mean "the stewards should have investigated and probably applied a penalty". On which, I agree. The onus was on Verstappen to make the corner and not force Hamilton off track. My point in the post of mine you quote is that Verstappen's actions were not deliberate, but rather a product of making a miscalculation on how much grip his tyres had to give him. That doesn't absolve him of being in the wrong, I just don't like seeing some of the conspiracy theories being posted about him having nefarious intent. If he'd had intent, neither of them would have finished the race - Verstappen knew keeping Hamilton behind was a long shot.

I disagree, Max NEVER backs off and he would have been well aware that if Hamilton hadn’t taking avoiding action there would have been a collision which would not have disadvantaged his Championship lead. He is a top driver, I suggest he knew exactly what he was doing and so did Lewis, which is why there wasn’t a collision. Just imo

If Lewis does manage to take the Championship lead before the last race Max will not make a similar move in it. Not backing off when you are behind in the latter Championship races when you are not leading the Championship is just stupidity. Hence Lewis running wide in this race

 

[Iggle Piggle]

In other news:

Zhou has been confirmed at Alfa for next season, alongside Bottas. Piastri has therefore been left with a reserve / Friday practice drive at Alpine and will have to cool his heels waiting for Alonso to retire or for Ocon to go through a terminal poor spell of form. All assuming, of course, that Piastri wins the F2 title and thus can't run F2 again next season. Worth noting that he would be the first rookie to win F2 and not get an F1 drive the following year.

If Piastri had the financial backing instead of Zhou he'd without doubt be the first cab off the rank. He's more than likely won F2 this year - having won F3 last - unlike Zhou who is 3 years into F2 and unlikely to become champion. Mazepin has been largely derided this year but finished above Zhou last year in F2. Like Tsunoda with the Honda /Japanese linkage, Zhou has "other" factors ensuring his progression. I'd expect Bottas to wipe the floor next year. He's not hopeless but he's more filler than potential world champion.

 

[Audax]

I disagree, Max NEVER backs off and he would have been well aware that if Hamilton hadn’t taking avoiding action there woukd have been a collision which would not have disadvantaged his Championship lead. He is a top driver, I suggest he knew exactly what he was doing and so did Lewis, which is why there wasn’t a collision. Just imo

If Lewis does manage to take the Championship lead before the last race Max will not make a similar move in it

Yes, exactly. He's good enough that if he wanted to cause contact, there would have been contact. And it would have looked awfully similar to what happened when Hamilton tagged him at Silverstone. IMO, while Max is a supremely talented driver, he's also a bit of a hothead. He never wants to back down, and it leads him to do things "in the moment" without thinking through the potential consequences. In that moment on approach to T4, I'm of the opinion by far the most likely thought going through his mind was "I have to go deep or he's past me", he committed deep, the front tyres couldn't take it, and the understeer took over. From that point he was managing the tyre to try to get the grip back.

It will be interesting to see what the review (assuming one happens - it's not certain it will) comes back with.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

As for this new footage, I'm just about in the 5 second penalty camp at the time (especially when you look at some of the other penalties thrown about this year) but he can't be penalised retrospectively in my view - it's like a VAR decision after the final whistle as if that would ever happen (cough). Someone should be having a word with Red Bull to say Max can't take the piss in the future though.

If Max raced Max he'd be in the wall every week.

 

[Icy Gull]

If Max raced Max he'd be in the wall every week.

How true

 

[Marty___Mcfly]

But he can be penalised retrospectively in F1- the system is apparently that the stewards can re-open the case if new evidence appears.

And given that they didn’t review any evidence at the time - beyond the TV footage - there is loads of new evidence available- the new footage, the data from Max’s car etc.

Let’s see him get a penalty, would even it up a bit with Hamilton being docked 25 places and would close the title contest up a bit. And would annoy Max and Horner and I love watching them squirm when things haven’t gone their way, because they are both incapable of ever admitting that anything is in any way their fault [emoji1787]

 

[The Wizard]

As for this new footage, I'm just about in the 5 second penalty camp at the time (especially when you look at some of the other penalties thrown about this year) but he can't be penalised retrospectively in my view - it's like a VAR decision after the final whistle as if that would ever happen (cough). Someone should be having a word with Red Bull to say Max can't take the piss in the future though.

If Max raced Max he'd be in the wall every week.

Normally I would agree but that new camera angle is pretty significant as far as new evidence goes, given the incident wasn’t even properly investigated which I still find ridiculous given how anal the FIA are normally about on track incidents.

You say someone should be having a word with max but the only way he will start showing more respect is punishment, this will happen again, probably before this season is out and everyone will say it’s because he’s got away with this one. (And countless others this season)

As a racing driver if you deliberately force another driver off the track you know the punishment, particularly when footage shows you not even attempting to make the corner until it’s patently obvious it’s too late.

 

[Hugo Rune]

When they say "case to answer" they mean "the stewards should have investigated and probably applied a penalty". On which, I agree. The onus was on Verstappen to make the corner and not force Hamilton off track. My point in the post of mine you quote is that Verstappen's actions were not deliberate, but rather a product of making a miscalculation on how much grip his tyres had to give him. That doesn't absolve him of being in the wrong, I just don't like seeing some of the conspiracy theories being posted about him having nefarious intent. If he'd had intent, neither of them would have finished the race - Verstappen knew keeping Hamilton behind was a long shot.

The ‘intent’ from Verstappen was that Hamilton was not going to pass. He did this by braking way too late, it was very clever. The best case scenario for Max was what actually happened; Hamilton took avoiding action, Hamilton didn’t get past (that time) and he avoided a penalty.

He never intended to make that corner once Hamilton had got ahead of him, his intention was to block Hamilton by breaking too late and either be hit or force his rival off the track. He’d already decided on this course of action before his speed coming into the corner dictated that was his only option (other than him steering back away from the corner in order to hit Hamilton which would have probably seen him get a race ban).

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think it was clear and deliberate to run off the track. Not a great believer in VAR, particularly after the event, but in this case a 5 second penalty should be applied and demotion to third place.


The thing that absolutely swings it for me ? Christian Horner (see, [MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION], that's how to admit you are prejudiced)