Evolution debate.

[Simster]

All sorts of groups have used their 'ideal' for wars Buzzer, but I believe 'religious' wars win the race.

Lazy nonsense as usual. Both world wars and the Napoleonic war - none involved religion.

More often than not, wars that are attributed to religion are nothing of the sort and are actually down to a power vacuum, such as when the Brits pulled out of India before partition. Had there been any sort of law enforcement at the time, no way would there have been such large scale death on the India/Pakistan borders. Same sort of thing in Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria these days.

 

[daveinprague]

So..are you advocating getting rid of both ideals? Seems a bit unfair for you not to want to get rid of socialism because it's 'only' killed 200 million or whatever it is compared to 300 million or whatever it is for religion. The world would be a better place without 2 clearly flawed belief systems, right?

Im not saying get rid of anything...im saying, more people have died because of 'religion' than anything else.

 

[daveinprague]

Lazy nonsense as usual. Both world wars and the Napoleonic war - none involved religion.

More often than not, wars that are attributed to religion are nothing of the sort and are actually down to a power vacuum, such as when the Brits pulled out of India before partition. Had there been any sort of law enforcement at the time, no way would there have been such large scale death on the India/Pakistan borders. Same sort of thing in Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria these days.

Guess what Simster... There were religious wars, before and after Waterloo.

 

[Nibble]

It's weird, whenever someone from the West tells me they believe in God I think "Naaah, you don't. You're too intelligent to buy that, there's too much evidence available to those in the west to sway an intelligent person into religion" but then when some Fundi Muslim or oddball from the deepest depths of the Congo says they believe in it I think "Yeah, you're probably dumb enough to". It's a funny old game.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

That's all well and good if you follow the religion of where you born and for those reasons but not everyone does.

But the vast majority do - strange how you never get any Catholics born to the Mr. and Mrs. Goldbergs of this world

 

[Buzzer]

They believe that Selassie, is from an unbroken line going back to Solomon, and the Queen of Sheba.

That particular bit isn't as far-fetched as it first sounds, you know. The evidence is inconclusive although there is some out there that might just back this theory up.

 

[Simster]

Guess what Simster... There were religious wars, before and after Waterloo.

And your point is? Oh that's right, you don't have one.

Have a look at this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

How many of those with a deathtoll of >5m were fought in the name of religion then? You seem to know it all, you tell us.

 

[One Love]

there's too much evidence available to those in the west to sway an intelligent person into religion

Like what?

 

[One Love]

So..are you advocating getting rid of both ideals? Seems a bit unfair for you not to want to get rid of socialism because it's 'only' killed 200 million or whatever it is compared to 300 million or whatever it is for religion. The world would be a better place without 2 clearly flawed belief systems, right?

But it wouldn't stop people killing each other. They would just find another reason.

 

[Nibble]

Like what?

You know, Science and that. Libraries, education, internet, rational thinking, cause and effect, etc.

 

[symyjym]

If there was a God he would be he wouldn't be happy with the way name is being used.

Absolutely

Although I meant to say.

If there was a God he wouldn't be happy with the way name is being used.

 

[One Love]

You know, Science and that. Libraries, education, internet, rational thinking, cause and effect, etc.

You need to more specific as I'm not very intelligent.

Evidence of the non-existence of God is what I'm looking for, by the way.

 

[Nibble]

You need to more specific as I'm not very intelligent.

Evidence of the non-existence of God is what I'm looking for, by the way.

Oh, you'll be looking a heckish long time then. In the same way I cannot prove to you that purple elephants don't exist but I go on probability.

 

[One Love]

Oh, you'll be looking a heckish long time then. In the same way I cannot prove to you that purple elephants don't exist but I go on probability.

Oh I thought you said evidence. Now it's probability.

So anyone who believes in God is probably an idiot

 

[Buzzer]

But it wouldn't stop people killing each other. They would just find another reason.

Exactly. And poor old Dave is going round in circles now trying to argue himself out of a corner because clearly the problem is people and not the belief systems themselves - which was your point all along.

 

[Simster]

You know, Science and that. Libraries, education, internet, rational thinking, cause and effect, etc.

And yet, I know so many religious people who are certainly a good deal more intelligent than you. From a really good mate who graduated with a 1st from Cambridge, binned a career in IT to become a priest near Oxford, to an actuary with 10 times the earning power of you and who is now a church warden locally - it just doesn't follow that you can have a faith and are unintelligent.

I don't get it myself, but you're just being ignorant to suggest that.

 

[Mellotron]

Coming in late to this, but just wanted to check that people don't assume that being a Christian = Creationist, right?

The vast vast vast majority of Christians I know accept and acknowledge evolution, and that the world is VERY old, not about 14,000 years old.

 

[Nibble]

It would be nice to hear some reason behind your views, rather than seeing you militantly & arrogantly spamming your seemingly close minded and presumably uneducated belief that God doesn't exist.

I've given plenty of reasons. Just because you don't believe my point of view don't make the mistake of thinking me militant or arrogant or that my posts are spam. Close minded I am not, I have been around religion and non religion all my life and drawn my own conclusions.
As for education, I suggest you turn an eye to the lamentable construction of your closing sentence.

The rather convenient and charmingly naive made up religion you seem to adhere to indicates neither open mindedness or education, more fanciful ideas and a gross inability to commit to one thing or the other.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Atheism is a movement, as in it's a defined set of beliefs that people share and promote to influence the current Zeitgeist - what makes it different from religion is that it's not an organised movement, it's anarchic and not all atheists agree with one another.

It doesn't encourage any type of behaviour as a set of beliefs, but it can be argued that a lack of spirituality, or a lack of belief in something greater, can lead to a nihilistic view that life is ultimately pointless beyond selfish, hedonistic pursuits which are essentially unfulfilling and damaging to society.

You don't need religion to believe in God, I'm an example of this, but atheism does seem to generally be a detachment from any kind of spirituality, which is vital on both individual and societal levels to experience profound inner strength and togetherness. I'm not saying that no atheists have that, just that they are less likely to due to the implications of having a belief system that life is just a deterministic and pointless circumstance that is essentially meaningless.

It's not a defined set of beliefs at all, it's just not believing in a single thing - God.

It helps to promote and influence nothing. You are confusing secular society and culture with atheism. It's just a term for not believing in God. You are trying to suggest it's more than that - it isn't.

And of course not all atheists agree with each other - there is only one thing they have got in common; not believing in God! That's it, there is no other unifying factor or characteristic.

Can it really be argued that not believing in a God or a belief in a deity or something greater can lead to nihilism, and that life is ultimately pointless...etc....damaging to society? Can you really argue that case against what religion does, has done and is doing to the world!? Can you really successfully argue you that?

Do you really believe people think that life is pointless and deterministic if they don't believe in heaven or reincarnation or resurrection? You hold a belief and a faith that gives you comfort, profound inner strength and togetherness, but it is just a construct of your mind. Regardless of whether it is real and God is real is irrelevant because you don't know, you cannot know, and won't know until after you're dead. At present you just have a belief system based on faith that is mutually shared by others. It gives you nothing more than anyone else can have in their lives.

There is a freedom in having a belief in the joy of life, the wonderment of nature, of beauty, love, laughter, family, science, without recourse to a higher power determining whether we've been good enough for some kind of notion of after life - what is more deterministic than that? We are made of the stuff of stars, we twinkle for a blink in time and return to being star dust once more. There is nothing damaging to society in this. The only thing that can tear society apart is religion, it has that power and does it with regularity. There is nothing more nihilistic in this world than someone blowing themselves up for a steadfast belief that they are going somewhere better.

Religion itself can cause nihilism. It's absolute certainty in some form of paradise after death is the very negation of the value of this life on earth. It was actually Nietzsche who suggested that only the unburdening of our dependency on constructed belief systems would enable true enlightenment, that the complacency of Christian values has only stifled the progression of man to unlock their real human spirit.

 

[Nibble]

Oh I thought you said evidence. Now it's probability.

So anyone who believes in God is probably an idiot

Yes, to some degree people who believe in religion are idiots. They may be educated idiots but idiots nonetheless.