[Politics] Euthanasia

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Palliative sedation to assist patients in end of life care with a painful death has been going on for decades for patients with terminal cancer - Morphine is gradually increased until the patient slips into deeper sleep and then the “last dose” is given - I have never had an issue with that..

There’s probably strong arguments that we should be managing pain better in people with non-terminal but very painful chronic health conditions but even in that scenario, a 40 year old with ALS or other motor neuron/neurological diseases that results in severe decline of physical function, should have the freedom to choose. PAS (physician assisted suicide) and palliative morphine treatment has societal and human dignity value imo. My father died at home with his family around him and after his morphine had been upped steadily over the previous 76 hours - he went peacefully and having not been in too much pain as a result (although the pain of his heart stopping was evident on his semi-conscious face)

My support is for those who are younger too, with very painful terminal or chronic life conditions. I myself have discussed this a number of times with doctors in recent months due to the longterm severe pain level and fatigue and increasing loss of mobility due my incurable neurological conditions - I can completely understand how one can get to a stage that carrying on living is just exhausting and quality of life is so diminished when you have incurable illnesses that it is simply too hard to struggle on with - you have just had enough. I have been close to that point many times in the past year and said only last week to my GP that although I don’t feel suicidal, at times I am simply ready to stop living (like a very elderly person lying in a hospital bed, at the point that they are just ready to ‘let go’.)

So I support it fully - my choice is increased morphine doses until the “last dose”.

Anyway probably not in one of these though - they are too reminiscent of “eugenics and social Darwinism “ for my liking. I would wonder how far off into the future could it be before we saw these available at our nearest shopping mall along with AI medical diagnostic clinics?

“You have been diagnosed with alzeimers/cancer/MS - you will find the suicide pod in the first room on your left should you chose to exit life now - if not, please leave the way you came in”

Thoughtful post as always.

The cancer morphine scenario is very specific. My mentor's dad had terminal cancer in the 1960s on the Isle of Wight (he was a prison officer). His doctor was very careful to explain exactly how much morphine was too much (this was self administration). One night the old fellah died in his sleep. Nothing was said.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

My Mother has vascular dementia and has not known who I am for the past ten years and since that point her quality of life has worsened. For the past five years she's been curled up in the foetal position with her fingers crippled and overlapping each other, an horrific site to see and one I know she wouldn't have wished. If you walked into the house and saw a pet in such a way you'd call the authorities.

We rightly demand that each and every life is precious but we do little to assess and allow people to move on when the quality of that life is so poor that we wouldn't allow a pet to live it.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

It’s strange how a person’s will has control. I know one of my aunts who received a cancer diagnosis, aged 60, who died within 6 weeks, whereas a friend, in her 80s, was determined to celebrate their Diamond wedding, lived for 8 months, but once done, died within two weeks.

Yep, my ex's grandmother, sat in her armchair one day, simply announced 'I'm done" (or similar) and passed away peacefully sitting up, no diagnosed illness, just had enough of living.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Thoughtful post as always.

The cancer morphine scenario is very specific. My mentor's dad had terminal cancer in the 1960s on the Isle of Wight (he was a prison officer). His doctor was very careful to explain exactly how much morphine was too much (this was self administration). One night the old fellah died in his sleep. Nothing was said.

Possibly similar with my grandmother in 1960's. She was dying in a lot of pain, when the doctor visited her for the last time. I was too young at the time to understand what was going on.

But any formal euthanasia scenario would need enormous safeguards to ensure that a third party doesn't encourage somebody just because the sufferer is "inconvenient".

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yep, my ex's grandmother, sat in her armchair one day, simply announced 'I'm done" (or similar) and passed away peacefully sitting up, no diagnosed illness, just had enough of living.

My Dad was dying in Worthing Hospital when I received a phone call at 8.30 to say he had taken a turn for the worse. The car was at the garage for an electrical fault, we had a courtesy car.
I rang my husband, set off from work, picked him up, packed a couple of bags, and went to the garage, who said it would be another hour. It was one of the longest hours in my life.
We finally got to Worthing around 3, where my StepMum & a cousin were with him. My cousin said, he’s been waiting for you.
He was completely unconscious, but I told him I was sorry for arriving late, but I was here now, and it was ok to let go.

He died soon after.

Sometimes, we have to let our dying loved ones know it is ok to let go. I have heard this a few times from other people.

 

[Han Solo]

I never thought you were more into Eu-than-Asia.

Hehehehe.

Yeah I know where the door is...

 

[Sorrel]

My issue with it is the potential of scope-creep and an increase in the type of situation that "qualifies". There's plenty of good examples on this thread when euthanasia makes sense, when the person sees no point in continuing pain, when they and the family around them are suffering. In practice, in my experience, there is a level of euthanasia in place already for some terminal cases.

Things get complicated when the person loses mental capacity. Who is to decide in those cases? I don't want a state that decides that it's time for people to die.

Then there is likelihood of those suffering from mental conditions - but otherwise healthy - wanting to die. I wouldn't trust any doctor who thinks death is right solution for people in those cases and certainly wouldn't want them treating me or my family.

If we can separate the first set of reasons for euthanasia away from the second two, then I'd be ok with it. But I don't trust that allowing it for the first reason won't end up in a few years with it happening in the later cases.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

It was a disappointing afternoon, but I'm not taking it that far

 

[Zeberdi]

Anyway, have to sign off now as my tears are dripping all over the keyboard ....

Heart wrenching post. Particularly as this is something my family will also be facing in the near future.

I think there is a big difference between proactively asking patients if they want to die and responding to patients begging doctors or family members to ‘let them die’. The former is absolutely not acceptable under any circumstances imo as it easily could be interpreted by a sick and vulnerable person that you think they are a burden.

Also, let’s not confuse ‘euthanasia’ which is the deliberate act of ending someone else’s life and the right to choose ‘suicide’ which is the deliberate act of ending your own life with the assistance of a medical practitioner. I don’t know how I feel about the former as it is potentially open to a lot of abuse but I am fully supportive of the latter.

What is ‘best’ for any patient in charge of their faculties is giving them informed choices over every aspect their care, including to refuse it completely and (currently) having the freedom to go to Switzerland (for suicide) and not being made to suffer against their wishes.

However, if that patient is not in charge of their mental faculties then the presumption should always be that they want to carry on living unless they have signed a DNR or ‘no extraordinary measures’ prior to becoming ill or voiced that specific wish to trusted family members before losing their faculties (in which case the presumption can be challenged).

As for anyone wanting to die at home, I feel very strongly that when it has got to the stage of palliative care, every effort should be made to make that possible, even if it means getting in 24hr nursing care and having family members stay in the house.

We need to make it easier for elderly/very sick people to die in their homes and not in a hospital bed by investing in more community care nurses and cancer outreach services.

 

[sydney]

This x 1000.

this sort of ties in with the will thread doesn't it , we recently went and had a will drawn up and had to go back with the kids to get it all signed , i requested non intervention and self determination which resulted in my missus bawling her eyes out and my kids getting all upset but nah .........bugger that , if i cant look after myself i'm out here.

having sat holding my dads hand as he passed away in St Barnabas which was heart breaking and gut wrenching but compared to the 5 months in a nursing home my mum had to endure i would take that any day , nursing homes are huge revenue rakers , a massive profit driven industry.

 

[Deadly Danson]

this sort of ties in with the will thread doesn't it , we recently went and had a will drawn up and had to go back with the kids to get it all signed , i requested non intervention and self determination which resulted in my missus bawling her eyes out and my kids getting all upset but nah .........bugger that , if i cant look after myself i'm out here.

having sat holding my dads hand as he passed away in St Barnabas which was heart breaking and gut wrenching but compared to the 5 months in a nursing home my mum had to endure i would take that any day , nursing homes are huge revenue rakers , a massive profit driven industry.

Over two years into the nearly £10,000 a month care home journey and many more years into the dementia journey I agree with you. If someone would give me a legal tablet to end my parents' suffering I would send them off to sleep peacefully with all the love and thanks in my heart. Instead, later on today I'll go and see them and my heart will break a little more.

 

[sydney]

i'm sorry for your predicament mate , we were gobsmacked at the prices of care homes in Worthing even though it's never about the money , i don't know how the owners sleep at night to be honest , the last place my mum was in she had a room near the office and we could hear the supervisor arguing with " head office" because the staff had not been paid and the facility credit card was maxed out and she couldn't feed residents , your parents are lucky to have you visit them , must be hard ......all the best.

 

[BrickTamland]

It’s wrong IMO to leave such big decisions about life and death to the youth in Asia

 

[Zeberdi]

Seeing this comedy skit got me wondering about people’s views in 2024.

Sorry if this subject is too close to the bone for some, particularly those who have known people who have gone through it. Hopefully you haven’t clicked, having read the subject title; but if this subject is sensitive please click away from the page.

Personally I am 100% in favour. Everyone should have a fundamental right to choose.

Just to clarify the original poll question;

We should be specific as to whether we are talking about Voluntary Euthanasia or Physician Assisted suicide? Or Involuntary/Aggressive Euthanasia which is much more controversial .

There is a lot of confusion on this thread about the difference.

Involuntary ’Euthanasia’ is the act of killing another person by the physician, which is universally illegal (ie putting them out of their misery) or ‘allowing‘ them to die by withdrawing treatment without their consent (which is not illegal )- it does not need the choice of the person being euthanised. The patient does not even need to be conscious. ‘Involuntary Euthanasia’ in an aggressive sense, is what we do to animals - they have no say in it - we are actively (usually out of mercy) killing them without their consent - so let’s not conflate this form with assisted suicide (nor even DNRs or No Special Measure requests that were put in place by the patient).

’Suicide’ or more specifically physician assisted suicide is helping other people to kill themselves - ‘Dignitas’ is for people fully in control of their faculties, exercising their freedom of choice by making a decision to commit suicide with the help of a physician. Abuse and safeguards are not really not as much an issue as the person is fully in charge of their faculties when making the decision to commit suicide and they are (subject to verification) exercising a personal freedom of choice. Most people think we should have the choice to take lethal drugs ourselves to die a quicker more painless death under certain circumstances.

‘ Killing a patient against their will (involuntary, aggressive/active, other-administered)’ however, is ‘almost universally condemned’.

There’s a good discussion here on the differences

Euthanasia - MU School of Medicine

Learn more about the ethical implications of euthanasia.

medicine.missouri.edu

What is assisted dying and how could the law change?

A proposed law would let terminally ill people in England and Wales choose to end their life.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[sydney]

"involuntary euthanasia" would be something else obviously , euthanasia and assisted dying are the same thing , i have no idea what @BrickTamland is on about , can't see the joke , have i been away too long..

 

[Zeberdi]

"involuntary euthanasia" would be something else obviously , euthanasia and assisted dying are the same thing , i have no idea what @BrickTamland is on about , can't see the joke , have i been away too long..

Welcome back Sydney

It is not ‘obvious’, hence my post - The medical profession/law makers distinguish between voluntary and involuntary euthanasia because the lines can get very blurred. Some people are talking on this thread about the needs for safeguards etc for assisted dying for those who have no faculties left to make that decision themselves (involuntary euthanasia) - assisted suicide (a form of voluntary euthanasia) is an expressed choice made by the patient not by the family or a doctor. (Withdrawing medical treatment is also involuntary Euthanasia and generally not controversial except for the families involved)

The links explain the difference.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

i'm sorry for your predicament mate , we were gobsmacked at the prices of care homes in Worthing even though it's never about the money , i don't know how the owners sleep at night to be honest , the last place my mum was in she had a room near the office and we could hear the supervisor arguing with " head office" because the staff had not been paid and the facility credit card was maxed out and she couldn't feed residents , your parents are lucky to have you visit them , must be hard ......all the best.

Be interesting to know about the regulation of that 'industry,' how much the carers make compared to the management, ownership. They must be required to submit inventories or whatever, for scrutiny, but seeing as the prices seem similar across many homes I guess it's the endorsed going rate, 7-8k a month on average at the top end, for full dementia care.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

I strongly agree with a person’s right to choose. Even if one should be not too bad now, it the only future is a downward slope to oblivion and pain… you should be able to say, “ I have had enough.. let me go “
I see it as a human right

I would be first in line for the “ suicide pod” ……
NB , not today though…..

 

[sydney]

all the homes we considered and there were a few ( 7 or 8 ) most of them were run by holding companies or " family trusts ,. thats who the bills/fees were paid to , the carers were European , Philippino , Bangladeshi all on visas probably on bottom dollar and the food was disgraceful , 60 residents paying 7-8 k a month , do the maths , lot of money to be made and i'm sure that outgoings in general are kept to a mimimum.

 

[wunt be druv]

I do agree with the persons right to choose to end their own life if they are terminally ill, I watched my late Mother as she was dying of cancer, the last week was very traumatic although the nursing home she was in and palliative care team were brilliant she was in obvious discomfort and given the chance to take a pill,have an injection or press a button to end her own life she would have done so, I had a POA for her treatment and don't know if I could have said "yes" if asked to end her life, the end of life plan she had and the drugs they gave her did help and her last few days she was blissfully unaware and I take comfort from this, the only problem as I see it with euthanasia is that someone has to perform that last act for them if they cannot do it themselves, as her son, there would have been no way I could do it no matter how much she may have wanted me to, heartbreaking all round.