Europe: In or Out

[sir albion]

In is the choice if you want a prosperous future for the nation

Lol

 

[GT49er]

Indeed, agreed, but what was signed up for then is completely different to now.

Yes, But still fought with dirty tactics by the 'In' faction - who also withheld the information that what the lemmings were voting for was only the start, and that a host of other decisions would be taken without our consent, without any democratic consultation.
The Peoples' Dave's 'reforms' will of course be merely smoke and mirrors, tarted up to fool the public into voting 'in' (he hopes.....). Even that arch-enemy of the EU, the so called Iron Lady, meekly agreed to the Schengen Agreement and the Single European Act (without giving us a say) when she was told to by our 'partners' in Europe.

 

[Stoo82]

If I voted today, it would be out. But I am desperate to be convinced to vote in. I like the idea of a European Union, and want Britain part of it. But THIS European Union is just so shit. It needs monumental change. More accountability, less power and to actually encourage a 'Union', based on trade, defense and common foreign policy, rather than trying to make a European nation.

 

[Gwylan]

Are you confusing with the 2014 referendum that decided to limit immigration of EU citizens which as yet is not part of Swiss law

Yes, that's the one. I wrote "non-EU" by mistake I meant EU

 

[Cheshire Cat]

In.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

USA,China,Australia and India and so on....Much more prosperity outside the union as you will always be restricted.

I've heard it all now. I thought the UK Norway comparison was absurd. UK USA is plain mental.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If I voted today, it would be out. But I am desperate to be convinced to vote in. I like the idea of a European Union, and want Britain part of it. But THIS European Union is just so shit. It needs monumental change. More accountability, less power and to actually encourage a 'Union', based on trade, defense and common foreign policy, rather than trying to make a European nation.

The obvious solution to this is to stay in and shape its direction.

 

[GT49er]

The obvious solution to this is to stay in and shape its direction.

I think I've heard that argument from British politicians using that one for at least the last twenty years. *When do they think it will start happening?



*Answer: not until they've had what they regard as their fair share out of the trough...............

 

[pastafarian]

The obvious solution to this is to stay in and shape its direction.

it doesnt appear to want to change the shape of its direction

how would you change the EU or is it perfect
and if you couldnt get change would you then opt to leave or blindly swear allegiance forever no matter what?

 

[Soulman]

it doesnt appear to want to change the shape of its direction

how would you change the EU or is it perfect
and if you couldnt get change would you then opt to leave or blindly swear allegiance forever no matter what?

I would be amazed if most people knew who the top bods were that make decisions/run the EU.

 

[Gwylan]

Indeed, agreed, but what was signed up for then is completely different to now.

Yes, But still fought with dirty tactics by the 'In' faction - who also withheld the information that what the lemmings were voting for was only the start, and that a host of other decisions would be taken without our consent, without any democratic consultation.

I keep seeing this but it's not at all true. The very first words of the Treaty of Rome are "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,

Resolved to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe."

That's what we signed up for in 1973 and that's what we voted to support in 1975. I'm not sure how people can claim that we didn't vote for ever-closer union when it was there in black and white.

That's not to say I'm happy with it. Like Soulman, I don't like the idea that we have little control of our laws and I certainly don't like the industrial and agricultural policies but at least I don't go around spouting bollocks like "It's not what we signed up for"

We can't deny our past. That's what we wanted then: we need to look to whether that's what we want for our future

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I've heard it all now. I thought the UK Norway comparison was absurd. UK USA is plain mental.

Then you didn't read his posts properly - he didn't compare the UK to the USA, he suggested we have far larger markets to target than the EU one such as the US one .... or even China which is already a very successful market for us.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I keep seeing this but it's not at all true. The very first words of the Treaty of Rome are "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,

Resolved to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe."

That's what we signed up for in 1973 and that's what we voted to support in 1975. I'm not sure how people can claim that we didn't vote for ever-closer union when it was there in black and white.

That's not to say I'm happy with it. Like Soulman, I don't like the idea that we have little control of our laws and I certainly don't like the industrial and agricultural policies but at least I don't go around spouting bollocks like "It's not what we signed up for"

We can't deny our past. That's what we wanted then: we need to look to whether that's what we want for our future

Ted Heath admitted in a filmed interview after the referendums that the ultimate aim of the Common Market / EEC / EU was full political union but was neither highlighted nor discussed as it would meant the British public would have voted to stay out.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Then you didn't his posts properly - he didn't compare the UK to the USA, he suggested we have far larger markets to target than the EU one such as the US one .... or even China which is already a very successful market for us.

But the EU is the biggest market there is. So this doesn't make any sense.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

 

[GT49er]

I keep seeing this but it's not at all true. The very first words of the Treaty of Rome are "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe.............Resolved to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe."

That's what we signed up for in 1973 and that's what we voted to support in 1975. I'm not sure how people can claim that we didn't vote for ever-closer union when it was there in black and white.

What was there in black and white in 1975, the only chance the electorate got, was this, and only this:

Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain part of the European Community (the Common Market)? YES/NO

That was on the referendum paper (and pushed by every means possible by the 'Yes' advocates). The Common Market - an economic union, essentially a free trade area. Nothing more.

 

[Soulman]

But the EU is the biggest market there is. So this doesn't make any sense.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

Surely we export more outside "the biggest market".

 

[GT49er]

Ted Heath admitted in a filmed interview after the referendums that the ultimate aim of the Common Market / EEC / EU was full political union but was neither highlighted nor discussed as it would meant the British public would have voted to stay out.

................and shortly afterwards Ted Heath suddenly became the lucky owner of a large and expensive ocean-going yacht, 'Morning Cloud'.

 

[Soulman]

................and shortly afterwards Ted Heath suddenly became the lucky owner of a large and expensive ocean-going yacht, 'Morning Cloud'.

So he fiddled, got the yacht and continued to fiddle.

 

[5ways]

If I voted today, it would be out. But I am desperate to be convinced to vote in. I like the idea of a European Union, and want Britain part of it. But THIS European Union is just so shit. It needs monumental change. More accountability, less power and to actually encourage a 'Union', based on trade, defense and common foreign policy, rather than trying to make a European nation.

Wait and see what Cameron brings home, hopefully that can convince you to vote in.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Wait and see what Cameron brings home, hopefully that can convince you to vote in.

Anything he brings home won't be real - it will be smoke and mirrors

Like that 'surprise' bill the EU landed on us. Cameron - "We won't be paying it" meanwhile in the background it was balanced off against other charges and rebates putting us in exactly the same position we would have been if we had just paid it. If anyone believes anything Cameron brings back is true then they are an utter idiot.