Europe: In or Out

[Deleted member 22389]

I am undecided yet voted out, just shows you how stupid I and these poles are....

On the issue of immigration I have wondered what would actually happen if we did leave the Eu....

I have a terrible fear that the moment we do, The french police and other authorities would abandon Calais leaving the potential risk of the migrants free to get across the channel anyway they wish... With the French just sticking the middle finger up at us saying " votre problème maintenant rôti de boeuf "

That would lead to a melt down in this country and a definite rise in right wing activities be they far right or UKIP, and would bring the government crashing down in a backlash.

Or I could be wrong.

They could well abandon Calais, however could you really see the French authorities letting all the economic migrants freely walk in to the tunnel and on to the ferries, absolutely no chance. I should imagine we would process everyone in France, the fakers would be deported and then real ones allowed in to the UK. Calais would at least be cleared.

At this point our borders would be moved back to the UK, but pulling out the EU would at least allow us to control the free movement of people from the EU after this.

6,000 people in Calais is nothing compared to the estimated 4 million people they reckon could arrive in the EU over the next few years, and on top of this we also have people from Turkey who will be allowed to travel anywhere in the EU unrestricted because of the deal the Turkish government have done with the EU.

If we stayed in the EU we could well face a situation where we have 300,000 - 800,000 people coming to this country every year. We just can't do it. We don't have the infrastructure, jobs and we can't afford for this country to be embroiled in other peoples cultural and religious wars.

 

[daveinprague]

The UK should back ourselves as a dynamic, competitive and progressive country, Europe is a bit of a dog at present.

Not easy with a country full of 'sheeple'.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Out, for me.

Make it work, what exactly does that mean, bleating from the sidelines

Europe doesnt represent my political view, the Euro is a debacle, nearly all current Europhiles were also for the Euro trotting out the same scaremongering if we didnt join up now conveniently ignored, Germany's original policy on an open door policy for immigrants will blight the continent for a generation quite simply the most mindless decision in my lifetime. Its a gravy train running out of control, I dont want political union, I want to trade with them as they do with us and we can agree on common principles without subscribing to policies that dont benefit us whilst contributing £Billions per year.

I too love Europe, I have both lived and worked there and continue to travel there quite regularly, I recognise that each nationality is distinctly different, I like that, it didnt surprise me that the Greeks didnt share Germany's work ethic, and similarly that the Spanish sleep too much during the day and that the Italians like a back hander, thats the point really we are all a little bit incompatible and no amount of sloshing British taxpayers money to Brussels will change that.

The UK should back ourselves as a dynamic, competitive and progressive country, Europe is a bit of a dog at present.

I'm in at the moment, but that is a good post all the same.

 

[Soulman]

Whereas the Out campaign will no doubt be fair, factual, objective, promoted and supported by people with reasoned, open minds, with no recourse to scare tactics or jingoism right!?

Of course it won't, don't be silly, although the IN campaign will have a lot more money and weight thrown behind it. Just depends which " fair, factual, objective, promoted,scare tactics" you choose to follow.

 

[Bold Seagull]

If we do come out, then we should take Calais back as it's ours anyway, stolen in 1558!

 

[alfredmizen]

Undecided at the moment but leaning towards out.

 

[Notters]

Out... it's a bit like FIFA. Corrupt organisation creating a gravy train for those meant to be helping it's lowest members. Neither will solve their problems without first collapsing - fiddling around the edges won't work.
The rebuild can only start when someone (UK/UEFA?) Leave and expose it for what it is... a house of cards.

You've just described UK parliament perfectly.

Out, mainly so we can control our borders and our employment laws again.

I don't want Cameron to control our employment laws. He wants to do away with workers rights, like the Time Directive and would have us all working 100 hours a week to line his pockets.

 

[alfredmizen]

Out is anti-business and anti-growth. It would be a shattering broadside against the British economy. I'm fairly certain we'd shortly enter a recession as businesses scramble for the exits and the safety of Ireland, where they can house tech start-ups, Frankfurt, where Germany will gain European supremacy in financial services, and Slovakia/Slovenia/Lithuania where car manufacturers with access to the world's biggest single market can easily comply with its uniform regulation.

If you're concerned about our security consider Calais. We have British border and immigration posts on French soil. Pulling up the draw bridge doesn't make us safer; it just shifts the burden to our neighbours who will not always have our interests at heart. Think about information sharing. If we are part of the EU we can amplify British interests on counter-terrorism, refugees, and Ukraine. Why put our security in the hands of others? I'd prefer to have a greater, not lesser say on these issues.

Quite simply, no it wont.

 

[Insel affe]

They could well abandon Calais, however could you really see the French authorities letting all the economic migrants freely walk in to the tunnel and on to the ferries, absolutely no chance. I should imagine we would process everyone in France, the fakers would be deported and then real ones allowed in to the UK. Calais would at least be cleared.

At this point our borders would be moved back to the UK, but pulling out the EU would at least allow us to control the free movement of people from the EU after this.

6,000 people in Calais is nothing compared to the estimated 4 million people they reckon could arrive in the EU over the next few years, and on top of this we also have people from Turkey who will be allowed to travel anywhere in the EU unrestricted because of the deal they have done with the EU.

If we stayed in the EU we could well face a situation where we have 300,000 - 800,000 people coming to this country every year. We just can't do it. We don't have the infrastructure, jobs and we can't afford for this country to be embroiled in other peoples cultural and religious wars.

French Prime Minister Manuel Valls has warned that Europe's migration crisis is putting the EU at grave risk.
Mr Valls told the BBC Europe could not take all the refugees fleeing what he called terrible wars in Iraq or Syria.
"Otherwise," he said, "our societies will be totally destabilised."
More than a million migrants, mostly refugees, arrived in Europe last year, many making perilous journeys. On Friday, at least 21 people were killed as their boats sank off Greek islands.
Mr Valls also said that France would seek to keep its current state of emergency until a "total and global war" against so-called Islamic State (IS) was over.
The measures were introduced after the IS-led Paris attacks on 13 November and then extended for three months.

Mr Valls was speaking to Lyse Doucet, the BBC's chief international correspondent, at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.
Europe, he said, needed to take urgent action to control its external borders.
"If Europe is not capable of protecting its own borders, it's the very idea of Europe that will be questioned."

The migration crisis threatened major shifts in population, Mr Valls warned
Asked about border controls inside Europe which many fear put the passport-free Schengen zone at great risk, Mr Valls said the concept of Europe itself was now in very grave danger.
He did not directly criticise Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel for her welcoming message last year to refugees.
Mr Valls said she "had courage", but it was clear he believed her message was wrong, our correspondent says.
"A message that says 'Come, you will be welcome' provokes major shifts" in population, says Mr Valls.
He added: "We know clearly that after the Cologne incidents that with the continuous flow, not only to Germany but the countries of Northern Europe, Austria, the Balkans are confronted with this influx, that's why we need to find practical solutions for our borders."
Mr Valls was referring to attacks in the German city on New Year's Eve - largely attributed to foreigners - that have sparked 800 complaints, 520 of them relating to sexual crimes.
Mrs Merkel will later hold talks on the migrant crisis with Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu in Berlin.
EU countries hope Turkey will help to control the flow of migrants reaching the EU from Syria and other conflict zones.

 

[Yoda]

I have a terrible fear that the moment we do, The french police and other authorities would abandon Calais leaving the potential risk of the migrants free to get across the channel anyway they wish... With the French just sticking the middle finger up at us saying " votre problème maintenant rôti de boeuf "

That would lead to a melt down in this country and a definite rise in right wing activities be they far right or UKIP, and would bring the government crashing down in a backlash.


Or I could be wrong.

Of course they will, and with it the wasted money we've spent in increasing the security it the site as well as our immigration control based there.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Historically, I've been pretty strongly in the "in" camp. I've moved to "undecided". Some hard thinking to do in the run up to the referendum.

 

[Gwylan]

On the issue of immigration I have wondered what would actually happen if we did leave the Eu....

I have a terrible fear that the moment we do, The french police and other authorities would abandon Calais leaving the potential risk of the migrants free to get across the channel anyway they wish... With the French just sticking the middle finger up at us saying " votre problème maintenant rôti de boeuf "

That would lead to a melt down in this country and a definite rise in right wing activities be they far right or UKIP, and would bring the government crashing down in a backlash.

I'm not quite sure why a government acting on the results of a referendum would bring the government down. Are you suggesting that if we voted out, the government should ignore the vote. If the people vote for withdrawal (and its consequences) then so be it.

I'm an outer because I'm not happy about the ingrained corruption of the EU and its lack of accountability but I'm realistic enough to know that withdrawal would have minimal effect on immigration. About half the immigration to the UK is non-EU, so withdrawal would have no effect. It would have no effect on asylum claims as that's a different process. And I doubt whether it would have much effect on EU immigration: Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EU but EU residents have the right to move to these countries. I'm sure that the UK would adopt similar policies.

Vote out by all means but don't think it will make any difference to immigration

 

[severnside gull]

I'm getting confused.
According to CallMeDave/KingOfThePorkSandwich he wants to shake it all about before doing the in-out in-out bit.
Duff lyrics surely and much of Europe seems to agree.

 

[BigGully]

I'm not quite sure why a government acting on the results of a referendum would bring the government down. Are you suggesting that if we voted out, the government should ignore the vote. If the people vote for withdrawal (and its consequences) then so be it.

I'm an outer because I'm not happy about the ingrained corruption of the EU and its lack of accountability but I'm realistic enough to know that withdrawal would have minimal effect on immigration. About half the immigration to the UK is non-EU, so withdrawal would have no effect. It would have no effect on asylum claims as that's a different process. And I doubt whether it would have much effect on EU immigration: Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EU but EU residents have the right to move to these countries. I'm sure that the UK would adopt similar policies.

Vote out by all means but don't think it will make any difference to immigration

Half of a lot is still a lot .........................

 

[Insel affe]

I'm not quite sure why a government acting on the results of a referendum would bring the government down. Are you suggesting that if we voted out, the government should ignore the vote. If the people vote for withdrawal (and its consequences) then so be it.

I was suggesting it maybe possible that if voted out, and then the French gave up on border control the country then gets an influx of immigration most people in a way voted for by voting out of the EU in would then cause a meltdown.

bit far fetched I guess.

 

[beorhthelm]

Out is anti-business and anti-growth. It would be a shattering broadside against the British economy. I'm fairly certain we'd shortly enter a recession as businesses scramble for the exits and the safety of Ireland, where they can house tech start-ups, Frankfurt, where Germany will gain European supremacy in financial services, and Slovakia/Slovenia/Lithuania where car manufacturers with access to the world's biggest single market can easily comply with its uniform regulation.

this is the usual pro-EU nonsense, if these prospects were true, companies would already be in Ireland, Germany and Slovakia (and some are). tech start ups could be in Dublin today, but they aren't in great numbers because there's more to a start up than being in the EU, the pool of talent isnt there and isnt going to go there. finance was established in London long before the EU, with exchanges, services, organisations built here for centuries, that aren't in Frankfurt. as for car manufacturing, UK is the second largest exporter of car out of the EU, so why would leaving the EU impact that? meanwhile many industries would benefit from not being constrained by the EU, electronics for one would be allowed to grow without the restrictions of punitive, protectionist tariffs on component imports.

there will be no meltdown. there will be a few days of worried panic while people come to terms with the changes to come, then they will get on with them. there will be a trade agreement with the EU, because they stand to lose more (2nd largest economy in EU). there will be some losers, there will be some winners, as new opportunities emerge.

 

[sten_super]

I'm in, partly for personal interest (I do a reasonable amount of work in Europe's public sector) and partly because I have no idea what 'Out' actually looks like, and what the benefits are.

For me, 'Out' could range from;
Maintaining access to the free market, in which case we continue to make financial contributions to the EU (without a rebate?) and still have freedom of movement (so it does nothing for immigration). How is this really different from what we have at the moment?
Breaking all ties; no free market access, causing serious economic problems in at least the short term (and probably the medium-term) while we we-arrange our economy to face new export partners. A substantially-changed arrangement, but at what cost?

The best-case scenario is probably access to the free market and 'repatriation' of powers; but from my standpoint I don't see the benefit of this. The EU is no less democratic than our own Parliament, as far as I can see (although I'm happy to be corrected) - the only perceived downside is that it covers a larger area and therefore there's less 'personal' representation, but it's not like there's a huge amount of this in our own Parliament, is there?

 

[Randsta]

I always thought better to be In than out but now I'm undecided .....I'm watching a lot of news which is putting me off - I don't know how to find out what's for the best.

 

[The Clamp]

IN - with the caveat that we also have a decent government who will look after it's citizens and not sell us down the river for a profit like the governments of the last 50 years have taken great delight in doing. I'd also like my taxes going to the NHS and UK services and welfare as opposed to funding moody wars across the globe and "Global Aid" (paying off rich "third world" politicians for the right to move in and grab all their natural resources, leaving the people we are told we are helping with zero income and at the same time ruining the climate).

Will this happen? No.

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Out.