EU to charge Britain more money due to success of economy....

[sir albion]

A couple of points. The UK government has known about this for 10 months. If they hadn't cooked the books they wouldn't have been caught out. As for immigration who is going to tell the 5m British Living in the eu they no longer have the right to live there.

You on drugs pal?
Closing the door will not affect the people living abroad or the millions that have moved here...That will be the agreement if and when it happens.I sill can't believe you think those living elswhere will be forced back...Didn't we have bucket loads living around Europe before the EU?
Christ watch out we're goner get british migrants flocking back here

Un real what goes through people's heads...It's silimar to Skysports saying that football was invented in 1992

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I have a few issue with this. Firstly, no-one's received any money fraudulently. Calculating GDP and including the black economy as part of that is not the same as saying that Greece received any money from the EU fraudulently. Everything has been above board so to speak with the payments to Greece - what's changed is the way it is calculated.

Secondly, and this is a huge point - the whole thing about the black economy is that no-one pays tax on it so the Government don't receive the benefit. Greece may have a huge black economy but they don't see a penny of that money, criminals don't tend to decalre and pay tax on illegal earnings. It seems very unfair to base a charge based in part on money a country never receives. Lastly, the very nature of the black economy is that at best it's a guestimate. There's absolutely no way that the the Greek equivalent of the ONS or the EU can be sure what the real amount is. A quarter of a billion demand sprung overnight and immediate payment demanded based on guesses does not appear to me at least of being a reasonable way of running a department.

And further to Herr Tubthumper's comments about how clueless everybody is, this BBC article makes for very interesting reading and lays the blame squarely at the door of EU Commission incompetence. Italy, Holland and Britain have all said this has come as a complete surprise and with no consultation nor warning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-29776473

Matteo Renzi the Italian Prime Minister said:

"We only found out about Italy's extra money towards the EU budget last night"....He demanded "more transparency and clarity", saying "we don't come here to receive lectures and admonishments"..."When I say that bureaucracy risks destroying Europe, I say it because I think that this is the biggest risk for EU citizens."


​What silly little Englanders/Dutch/Greeks/Italians they all are, eh?

Of course Tax gets paid on the black economy loads of it - its called VAT The inland revenue might miss out on the Paye but they get a hefty percentage every time that money crosses into a legal till.
In some cases some businesses are set up to launder money into clean they run the illegal funds through a business running it at a loss sometimes and pay all the tax and vat and paye and then take the clean money as wages dividends expenses through other businesses - they might lose a third but 2 thirds of whatever still gets through and the inland revenue reap taxes.

How much tax is on a £100k car? remember Al capone got caught on tax fraud not his gang activities

 

[Buzzer]

As for immigration who is going to tell the 5m British Living in the eu they no longer have the right to live there.

If Britain leaves the EU then it will still be a member of the EEA, the same as non-EU members such as Iceland and Norway. Are you telling me that Norwegians living in Britain and Italy and Spain don't have the right to live there?

More scare-mongering from the same people that told us we faced economic ruin by sticking with the pound when most others adopted the Euro.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Of course Tax gets paid on the black economy loads of it - its called VAT The inland revenue might miss out on the Paye but they get a hefty percentage every time that money crosses into a legal till.
In some cases some businesses are set up to launder money into clean they run the illegal funds through a business running it at a loss sometimes and pay all the tax and vat and paye and then take the clean money as wages dividends expenses through other businesses - they might lose a third but 2 thirds of whatever still gets through and the inland revenue reap taxes.

How much tax is on a £100k car? remember Al capone got caught on tax fraud not his gang activities

I should add the greeks had a massive black economy - We knew about the bill ages ago but the only reason this is news is because it embarrasses Cameron at a time when he has a battle with Ukip for his votes. He has to show an anti Europe front or he's going to be blamed for losing

 

[Buzzer]

Of course Tax gets paid on the black economy loads of it - its called VAT The inland revenue might miss out on the Paye but they get a hefty percentage every time that money crosses into a legal till.
In some cases some businesses are set up to launder money into clean they run the illegal funds through a business running it at a loss sometimes and pay all the tax and vat and paye and then take the clean money as wages dividends expenses through other businesses - they might lose a third but 2 thirds of whatever still gets through and the inland revenue reap taxes.

How much tax is on a £100k car? remember Al capone got caught on tax fraud not his gang activities

Al Capone? He was caught because his lifestyle didn't match his income. What in hell has that got to do with anything? You're clutching at some very dodgy straws there.

As for your comments about VAT, I really don't think you've thought that through at all. If I choose to spend £100 on heroin and then the dealer goes and buys a car then yes he pays VAT on that but if I hadn't paid him the £100 I would have gone and paid VAT through whatever I would buy instead. That's the idea of a sales tax. Something, incidentally, that's definitely avoided through cigarette smuggling. It's clear that the loss to the treasury is in corporation and income tax. Not VAT.

And the Treasury benefit from PAYE paid in bogus companies set up to launder money? Yeah - that's where the £2 billion comes from! Dear oh dear.

 

[Camicus]

You on drugs pal?
Closing the door will not affect the people living abroad or the millions that have moved here...That will be the agreement if and when it happens.I sill can't believe you think those living elswhere will be forced back...Didn't we have bucket loads living around Europe before the EU?
Christ watch out we're goner get british migrants flocking back here

Un real what goes through people's heads...It's silimar to Skysports saying that football was invented in 1992

The point being freedom of movement is a Eu constitutional right. If we remove ourselves from this it also stops people emigrating. 46% of the UK wants to stop eu immigration while 56% would emigrate. Someone's on drugs and it's not me. British pensiors on the costas are a massive drain on the Spanish health services but people seem to think that is ok

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Secondly, and this is a huge point - the whole thing about the black economy is that no-one pays tax on it so the Government don't receive the benefit. Greece may have a huge black economy but they don't see a penny of that money, criminals don't tend to declare and pay tax on illegal earnings.

this is total nonsense. Loads of tax gets paid on the black market e.g. Money laundering and counterfeit goods are two big and obvious examples.

 

[Buzzer]

this is total nonsense. Loads of tax gets paid on the black market e.g. Money laundering and counterfeit goods are two big and obvious examples.

...But money laundering is where the black economy enters the normal economy and the government records that normally and goes down as legitimate business. If you include money laundering again then you're double counting.

Anyway, I thought you were still playing this silly game of fobbing me off with non-answers and then saying you weren't talking to me anymore?

 

[Camicus]

If Britain leaves the EU then it will still be a member of the EEA, the same as non-EU members such as Iceland and Norway. Are you telling me that Norwegians living in Britain and Italy and Spain don't have the right to live there?

More scare-mongering from the same people that told us we faced economic ruin by sticking with the pound when most others adopted the Euro.

Who says we will be in the EEA? We didn't have automatic right to residence before why would they grant it now? If you insist we have right of residence in the EEA then they have the same rights so what do we gain!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Anyway, I thought you were still playing this silly game of fobbing me off with non-answers and then saying you weren't talking to me anymore?

How old are you?

 

[Buzzer]

How old are you?

I'm sorry? You're the one telling people you won't talk to them anymore and then you do and I'm the child?

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Al Capone? He was caught because his lifestyle didn't match his income. What in hell has that got to do with anything? You're clutching at some very dodgy straws there.

As for your comments about VAT, I really don't think you've thought that through at all. If I choose to spend £100 on heroin and then the dealer goes and buys a car then yes he pays VAT on that but if I hadn't paid him the £100 I would have gone and paid VAT through whatever I would buy instead. That's the idea of a sales tax. Something that's definitely avoided through cigarette smuggling. It's clear that the loss to the treasury is in corporation and income tax. Not VAT.

That a bit simplistic in its self - not everything you buy has Vat and you might not have spent it. and thats the whole point of including it in our figures the £100 you are spending on heroin wasn't being included in the countrys figures so in your senario you have say £140M of business transactions NOT included when they should be - its where the money is being circulated thats important.

Capone was found guilty of evasion for not paying taxes on his ill-gotten wealth. He spent £30M on bribes to police and politicians - thats on top of what he had and his enterprise had - its a big amount of money to have circulating in an economy and why its included. why do you think they include it if its nothing?

 

[Buzzer]

Who says we will be in the EEA? We didn't have automatic right to residence before why would they grant it now? If you insist we have right of residence in the EEA then they have the same rights so what do we gain!

Ha! You berate me for not knowing if we will be in the EEA after we leave the EU..and of course we will. The whole world and his wife can see that. How many million French, Italian, Irish, German, Spanish people would it affect? The logistics alone don't bear thinking about for any EU nation....

..but you don't see the irony in telling us that for sure, we won't be in the EEA:

who is going to tell the 5m British Living in the eu they no longer have the right to live there.

 

[Buzzer]

Capone was found guilty of evasion for not paying taxes on his ill-gotten wealth

Yes..Income tax.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

...But money laundering is where the black economy enters the normal economy and the government records that normally and goes down as legitimate business. If you include money laundering again then you're double counting.

Anyway, I thought you were still playing this silly game of fobbing me off with non-answers and then saying you weren't talking to me anymore?

Of course its double counting - the money you spend has already been taxed and it gets taxed again and again and again every time your £ goes from person to person. It doesn't stop when you give it to someone in the black economy it just gets taxed differently and its more likely to be on something expensive with lots of tax on it

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Yes..Income tax.

Yes millions of bucks that he didn't include in his tax return - bit like the UK bill really!!!!??

 

[Camicus]

Who says we will be in the EEA? We didn't have automatic right to residence before why would they grant it now? If you insist we have right of residence in the EEA then they have the same rights so what do we gain!

So we grant automatic right of residence and get automatic right of residence. Wich gains us what exactly?

Ha! You berate me for not knowing if we will be in the EEA after we leave the EU..and of course we will. The whole world and his wife can see that. How many million French, Italian, Irish, German, Spanish people would it affect? The logistics alone don't bear thinking about for any EU nation....

..but you don't see the irony in telling us that for sure, we won't be in the EEA:

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm sorry? You're the one telling people you won't talk to them anymore and then you do and I'm the child?

Stop playing this silly school playground charade. I said I wasn't prepared to answer a specific question you keep turning threads around to and a question I have debated twice before. This is all, and you and every other person following this thread knows this.

 

[Buzzer]

Stop playing this silly school playground charade. I said I wasn't prepared to answer a specific question you keep turning threads around to and a question I have debated twice before. This is all, and you and every other person following this thread knows this.

I don't think I'll be taking any lectures in playground charades from a bloke who spams every politics and train thread with "wouldn't happen in Germany".

But thanks anyway.

 

[Buzzer]

Yes millions of bucks that he didn't include in his tax return - bit like the UK bill really!!!!??

I don't think I'm getting my point across. The US government put him in jail for tax not paid. Money they never received. And in the same way criminals now deny the Greek government income tax. The change of person who pays VAT from addiction the dealer is cost neutral to them.

If a dealer goes and gives them money via VAT on a new car it just transfers who pays that dosh. The loss to the government is in income or corporation tax.