[Cricket] England v India, Fourth Test match, The Oval, 02-06 September

[hans kraay fan club]

Indeed. One of the great tailend innings.

I'm not suggesting that we should completely ignore batting ability - I still shudder when I think of one test when we had Malcolm, Mullally and Tufnell as nine, ten, jack - but bowling should be the prime consideration.

England have a habit of picking players who can bat and bowl but not quite in test class at either - Miller, Marks, Pringle, Irani, Hollioake etc Moeen is actually better than most of these but isn't really what we need.

You talk of this like it is a historical thing! I'd say they are at least equally as guilty of it now. Sam Curran is not a Test bowler, and nor is Overton. The concept of a 'Test all-rounder' is great in principle, but they really need to be worthy of their place in one of those specific disciplines, with the other a bonus.

Obviously the likes of Botham, Sobers, Kallis who were worth their spot in EITHER discipline alone, are very rare, but not too much to ask for one.

England currently, have only Stokes (as a batter) and Woakes (as a bowler) in that class. The constant desire to shoehorn in an 'all-rounder to balance the side' (like Curran) never works out well.

 

[Gwylan]

You talk of this like it is a historical thing! I'd say they are at least equally as guilty of it now. Sam Curran is not a Test bowler, and nor is Overton. The concept of a 'Test all-rounder' is great in principle, but they really need to be worthy of their place in one of those specific disciplines, with the other a bonus.

Absolutely. I was just pointing out that it's not new. I was referring to Moeen but, yes, Curran and Overton are in the same class. And like you, I'd exempt Woakes from this as he's worth his place as a bowler.

It seems to be a pre-dominantly English thing. The great Windies teams of the 70s and 80s picked 6 batsmen, a keeper and four bowlers. The all-conquering Aussie team of the 90s and 00s did too and this Indian team is happy to go into a test with a long tail.

It's not difficult: your six best batsmen, a keeper and your four best bowlers .... it seems to be beyond England though

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Absolutely. I was just pointing out that it's not new. I was referring to Moeen but, yes, Curran and Overton are in the same class. And like you, I'd exempt Woakes from this as he's worth his place as a bowler.

It seems to be a pre-dominantly English thing. The great Windies teams of the 70s and 80s picked 6 batsmen, a keeper and four bowlers. The all-conquering Aussie team of the 90s and 00s did too and this Indian team is happy to go into a test with a long tail.

It's not difficult: your six best batsmen, a keeper and your four best bowlers .... it seems to be beyond England though

The role of the keep comes into this balancing act, too. Traditionally, a keeper who could actually bat well, was considered a 'wicket-keeping all-rounder', and it was considered that HIS inclusion 'balanced' the side, and then did allow you not to go searching for that elusive bowling all-rounder.

Now of course, it is considered an absolute given that your keeper be worth his spot as a middle-order batter (to the point that a bit of pretty average glove-work is deemed a price worth paying).and yet England think they have to include ANOTHER all-rounder as well.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

That's down to Root - he over-bowls his pace bowlers. Anderson and Robinson were out on the feet yesterday and still running in, barely hitting 80mph.

Look at the current injury list: Archer, Broad, Wood, Stone - that's not a coincidence.

You need a spinner to tie up an end and give pace bowlers short bursts. It also helps if you have a seamer who can tie an end up too - a Shackleton, a Hendrick, a Fraser.

I fear for our team in Australia, our pace attack is going to get completely burned out on hard Aussie wickets

It's not just tying up an end either, Jadeja hitting the footmarks of the fast right armers to a right hander over the wicket that sufficiently scuffed the ball to enable Bumrah to exploit some reverse in particular shows a level of thinking and selection that seems well ahead of England's thinking. Goodness knows what our plans are for the winter – if there are any that is.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It's not just tying up an end either, Jadeja hitting the footmarks of the fast right armers to a right hander over the wicket that sufficiently scuffed the ball to enable Bumrah to exploit some reverse in particular shows a level of thinking and selection that seems well ahead of England's thinking. Goodness what are plans are for the winter – if there are any that is.

I think the outline plans are 'Pray that Archer gets fit and Stokes makes himself available'.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

I think the outline plans are 'Pray that Archer gets fit and Stokes makes himself available'.

It does appear that the only way England will include an outright spinner (if they can't bat) is if Stokes is in the team. India are fortunate of course to have several spinners that can bat, but they're also picking seamers who can't but can take wickets on a flat track.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I agree with the bowler burn out, Root does seem very slow in changing things and also very reluctant to use himself. He has proven many times he can bowl. I also wonder about our bowling coaches. We bowl wide constantly, which is ok if the ball is moving sideways but in dry hot weather on a flat wicket we have to change to approach, we don't.

I know yesterday it was a 5th day pitch but it did appear visually to deteriorate around the footholds very quickly from the previous evening.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The ECB should be having a crisis meeting. It is 8 years since the likes of Root and Stokes broke into the England side and in that time there hasn't been one new batsmen who has come in and established themselves.

In that time we have seen Cook, Pietersen, Bell, Trott and Prior all retire - all with test averages in excess of 40, while no one has come in and managed to chip in with an average of even 35.

No disrespect to the Sussex kids this season - some of whom have been outstanding - but the standard of the 4-day game is getting worse whilst being virtually ignored by the ECB as the counties chase the quick cash cow that is one-day cricket.

There's no plan, this season is a mess.

 

[big nuts]

Just read that Joe Root has confirmed Jos Buttler comes straight back into the team. Other than being vice captain I really don’t think he has done enough this year to walk straight back into the team.

Both Bairstow & Pope feel better bets to score runs in the middle order.

Hopefully we see Wood in for Overton & Leach for Ali.