England to win the World Cup in 2022?

[BigGully]

But that's always been the case. If someone is a late developer then they'll come through: look at Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright, they didn't come into league football until their 20s and both went on to play for England.

I simply don't accept there's someone playing for Scunthorpe or Accrington who's good enough to play for England - if players are any good, they'll be found out.

Its not just the foreign players, its the foreign influence throughout our footballs structure.

Its unlikely a Portuguese/Spanish/Dutch/etc manager would look to Wealdstone FC in 2013 to solve their left back crisis, they would go back to their country of origin and find an obscure defender and offer time, support and opportunity.

Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright, who, we would never of heard of them.

 

[Simster]

For a Premier League team, it makes much more financial sense to take young British kids into their academies than gamble on foreign talent. Unfortunately, 11 year old Spanish kids are technically better than 11 year old English kids. I personally think the Premier League gets a bum rap... it would be less risky for those clubs to stuff their academies with English kids who will have parents around to support them. Unfortunately our kids aren't good enough so the clubs look abroad.

I think a major problem we have is that technically good players are often not encouraged to persue a career in the game, which is hardly a surprise. No right-minded parent with even moderately academically capable kids on their hands are going to want to see their kids not bother with A levels to persue a career in football as the chances are they are NOT going to end up earning £200k a week. This is an area that the Dutch have got it right. Ajax have their own schools in their academies. Their kids are encouraged to persue their academic qualifications under the wing of the club.

We have a dozen clubs as big as Ajax (or near enough) in this country, and all of them are wealthier. Why aren't our academies offering this sort of academic tutilege?

 

[Blues Rock DJ]

correct me if I'm wrong, but Dyke going on about foreign managers , albeit in the Prem , is/was he not involved with Brentford, who have a German manager ?

 

[Simster]

correct me if I'm wrong, but Dyke going on about foreign managers , albeit in the Prem , is/was he not involved with Brentford, who have a German manager ?

That is correct.

According to the Telegraph this morning:

"In essence, and these numbers are slightly disputed, England has 1,161 coaches at Uefa ‘A’ level compared with 12,720 in Spain and 5,500 in Germany. At pro licence level, England has 203 coaches, Spain 2,140 and Germany more than 1,000. "


So it's hardly Dyke's fault is it?

 

[Pavilionaire]

I thought the speech was good because he's the first chief to actually say the system is fundamentally broken and his job is to do something about it.

I also think it was a masterstroke to effectively rule England out of being leading contenders for trophies for the next 7 years. Nothing manages expectations like the top man saying it's not going to happen, so we won't get the extraordinary hype of previous tournaments.

It's a delicate balancing act though, akin to saying England are not a Premier League club because we're temporarily Championship standard. There's a danger more fans will lose interest in the England team.

I don't know how this Brave New World marries up with the appointment of Gareth Southgate as England U-21 boss. He strikes me as a safe, cheap, dull option when the right thing to have done is bring in someone like Hoddle who is a bigger name, English yet will command respect from all players and coaches alike.

 

[BigGully]

correct me if I'm wrong, but Dyke going on about foreign managers , albeit in the Prem , is/was he not involved with Brentford, who have a German manager ?

Its not a particularly new phenomenon either with the foreign aspect of control of young players opportunity.

Throughout the 70's & 80's we told that Scotland and Ireland was a hotbed of young football talent.

As we have now seen, this was never the case, however it was a hotbed of opportunities for those within those communities driven by the ever dominant Scottish and Irish influence on the power brokers within the English professional game at the time.

Predominantly Scottish and Irish coaches and managers offered an unhindered pathway to young talent from their homelands, many leap frogging their English counterparts.

Their national teams prospered and we were fed the 'hotbed of young talent' by them and so it continued.

The shift has been startling, Scottish football and many of their players are nearly defunct, there never was a hotbed, it was a incestuous dynamic, just as it is now, just different countries.

 

[Brovion]

Maybe I've got the wrong idea of these football competitions but shouldn't we be aiming to win them all ? Isn't that the point of entering ?

Well yes, but all Dyke is doing is managing expectations. And rather like a drug addict or an alcoholic admitting they need help Dyke admitting that we're not the best and we do have problems is a sorely needed first step on our road to recovery. Otherwise you know what will happen: when we don't win next year there will be some lip service paid to areas such as coaching and the damage done by the current organisation of boys' football but most will say we didn't win simply because the manager's useless and the players are all over-paid prima-donnas who don't care.

 

[beorhthelm]

everyone likes to blame there not being enough english players coming through, either at first team or even acedemies. why isnt there? a population of 50m+ we really should have the talent. whats happening the the talented players in their teens? if the local lad is good enough you can be sure the premiership clubs will bring them on. look at Senrab and its alumni from the 90's, whats happened since?

is this something the FA can and should address, outside of the club structure? can they provide the right facilities and training for coaches and players? i dont know, but the first place to start is to acknowledge the problem and posible solutions. iirc the French observed their lack of quality in the early 90s, did something about it and see what happened (and they dont even like football much over there)

 

[fat old seagull]

FA QUIZ.......

Complete the following sentence correctly >

Greg Dyke is

a)

b)

c)

d)

 

[KingstonSeagull]

It's not coming home....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

FA QUIZ.......

Complete the following sentence correctly >

Greg Dyke is

a)

b)

c)

d)

Which option is hypocrite?

 

[Stat Brother]

I really don't get this 'not enough English players' business. If places are tight so only the very best English players get to play, that's surely a good thing. I don't understand why the national team would be better if there were 20 or 30 more mediocre English players in the PL. You just need a good 22 (OK, 30 to cover injuries) and that should be enough. I can the argument applying for goalies - we don't have enough - but we have plenty in other positions.

To use the old chestnut. We didn't qualify in 74 or 78 and we had no foreign players in the league then. It's always rolled out as the counter-example but that's because it's undeniably true.

I agree with Kumquat. A lot of other countries have their players in different leagues, learning from different cultures and ways of doing things: it adds a new dimension to their game. We really don't have enough of this.

5-Live covered this, with some interesting points.

Would Jack Wiltshire have broken into Vieira and Petit's Arsenal midfield, clearly no.
JW came along at a time when Arsenal weren't spending money and he, Arsenal & England are now benefiting.

To bring it up to date:-
how much game time can Oxlade-Chamberlain now expect to get with the arrival of Ozil, certainly not as much.


When the presenter said to the panel 'so why don't young English players go abroad', the room fell silent and no answer was given.
I can't help thinking they all wanted to say 'cos they are over paid here, and aren't good enough to play there'.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

When the presenter said to the panel 'so why don't young English players go abroad', the room fell silent and no answer was given.
I can't help thinking they all wanted to say 'cos they are over paid here, and aren't good enough to play there'.

Does mainland Europe need or want English players though? The big euro nations don't seem short of technically proficient players so why would they want, what at best, are mainly fringe Premier players?

 

[beorhthelm]

Does mainland Europe need or want English players though? The big euro nations don't seem short of technically proficient players so why would they want, what at best, are mainly fringe Premier players?

forget "need or want" though. for all the technically proficient players, most teams in most leagues will still have a few foreigners. how many brits abroad? two i can think of, Bale and some chap in Germany who grew up there. why is that? do we really pay so much that its not worth going abroad to get first team action or just a different experience? is it technical ability, if so what do we do to address that? or is it just attitude and inclination? reckon the answers and solutions to this might well have a baring on the main issue.

not sure if this is relevent but i wonder how many professional footballers there are in other countries. is there too many professional clubs, mean too many opportunities to be "good enough" and make a living, feeding into expectations from both player and clubs?

 

[fat old seagull]

Which option is hypocrite?

ooops !

e)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

"The managing director of London Weekend Television (LWT), Greg Dyke, met with the representatives of the "big five"[12][13] football clubs in England in 1990. The meeting was to pave the way for a break away from The Football League. Dyke believed that it would be more lucrative for LWT if only the larger clubs in the country were featured on national television and wanted to establish whether the clubs would be interested in a larger share of television rights money. The five clubs decided it was a good idea and decided to press ahead with it"

 

[Gwylan]

everyone likes to blame there not being enough english players coming through, either at first team or even acedemies. why isnt there? a population of 50m+ we really should have the talent. whats happening the the talented players in their teens? if the local lad is good enough you can be sure the premiership clubs will bring them on.

Quite. This is why it's nonsensical to blame the clubs for crowding out English players: if they're good enough, they'll be picked. Look at Rooney, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Wilshere all picked for England in their teens. If you're talented enough, you'll come through. The real problem is that they're not talented enough.

5
how much game time can Oxlade-Chamberlain now expect to get with the arrival of Ozil, certainly not as much.

The question to ask here though is why do players go to a club where they don't get game time. The Ox might not get game time now but I bet he'd be a regular if he were still at Southampton. There are plenty of young English players in the PL but too many of them are happy to sit on the sidelines picking up big salaries.

I know he's not a young player but Mancini made this point about Wayne Bridge, saying that he couldn't understand why he wouldn't go out on loan and play regular football. Happily, he got his mojo back at Brighton but he spent his late 20s kicking his heels - yet would have walked into half the prem teams.

fodo we really pay so much that its not worth going abroad to get first team action or just a different experience? is it technical ability, if so what do we do to address that? or is it just attitude and inclination? reckon the answers and solutions to this might well have a baring on the main issue.

not sure if this is relevent but i wonder how many professional footballers there are in other countries. is there too many professional clubs, mean too many opportunities to be "good enough" and make a living, feeding into expectations from both player and clubs?

We actually have far bigger leagues than most other countries. No major country has as many as 20 teams in its top division and the Championship is bigger in terms of attendance than many other countries' top division. Not many have 92 league clubs either. If they can't break in over here, it's not because it's small

 

[Stat Brother]

Quite. This is why it's nonsensical to blame the clubs for crowding out English players: if they're good enough, they'll be picked. Look at Rooney, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Wilshere all picked for England in their teens. If you're talented enough, you'll come through. The real problem is that they're not talented enough.
The question to ask here though is why do players go to a club where they don't get game time. The Ox might not get game time now but I bet he'd be a regular if he were still at Southampton. There are plenty of young English players in the PL but too many of them are happy to sit on the sidelines picking up big salaries.

I don't think so.
Had The Ox stayed at Southampton he'd have played through the lower divisions, maybe not a bad thing, esp mentally.
But he certainly wouldn't have got the recognition and caps he now has.
It was a big money move to Arsenal which looked like the right move, up until Monday.

Arsenal have also made the right move buying one of the very best players in football, so they can hardly be blamed.
But the consequence of that directly effects The Ox and in so doing effects England.

Arsenal won't loan him out to the competition.
The Ox won't want to go to a 'lesser' club.
Why should he it's not like he's not good enough for the fourth best team in the country.
He's unlikely to go abroad.

His one saying grace is that England are rubbish.
What are the chances he'll end up playing more games for country over club.

 

[Gwylan]

I don't think so.
Had The Ox stayed at Southampton he'd have played through the lower divisions, maybe not a bad thing, esp mentally.
But he certainly wouldn't have got the recognition and caps he now has.
It was a big money move to Arsenal which looked like the right move, up until Monday.

Arsenal have also made the right move buying one of the very best players in football, so they can hardly be blamed.
But the consequence of that directly effects The Ox and in so doing effects England.

Arsenal won't loan him out to the competition.
The Ox won't want to go to a 'lesser' club.
Why should he it's not like he's not good enough for the fourth best team in the country.
He's unlikely to go abroad.

His one saying grace is that England are rubbish.
What are the chances he'll end up playing more games for country over club.

Sorry, I don't buy this. There seem to be two strands of thought here: a) good young England players aren't recognised and b) young English players don't get enough league games. A) is clearly not true: AOC got U-21 caps while he was still at Southampton, so he was certainly on the radar.

Yes, it's true that he doesn't play regularly for Arsenal but my point is that he would if he were playing in the Prem for Southampton. My point is that players frequently are offered a choice of regular first team football for a lesser team or sitting on a bench for a top team. 90% of them take the latter but they'd increase their chances of playing for England if they took the former.

Look back at the England team that won the WC: players from Leicester, Fulham, Blackpool and West Ham - none of them big teams.

Perhaps rather than looking at quotas, anyone looking into the state of English football should ask whether this situation is desirable.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Sorry, I don't buy this. There seem to be two strands of thought here: a) good young England players aren't recognised and b) young English players don't get enough league games. A) is clearly not true: AOC got U-21 caps while he was still at Southampton, so he was certainly on the radar.

Yes, it's true that he doesn't play regularly for Arsenal but my point is that he would if he were playing in the Prem for Southampton. My point is that players frequently are offered a choice of regular first team football for a lesser team or sitting on a bench for a top team. 90% of them take the latter but they'd increase their chances of playing for England if they took the former.

Look back at the England team that won the WC: players from Leicester, Fulham, Blackpool and West Ham - none of them big teams.

Perhaps rather than looking at quotas, anyone looking into the state of English football should ask whether this situation is desirable.

One problem I feel we have in England is the standard of coaching at lesser clubs. We have 92 pro clubs and I dread to think what coaching, if any, goes on at some of these. Football down the ladder is literally a survival of the fitness and little else. Before I left the UK I went to a number of smaller clubs as I was trying to the complete my 92 (Bury, Stevenage, Burton plus some others I cannot recall) and the football was utterly desperate at times. My point being is that if a player does not make it at one of the bigger clubs they are most likely lost to this chaos never to improve their trade. Contrast this to the lower leagues here in Germany and you will more often than not see teams still knock the ball around and try and play the game. A lot of the lower divisions are also made up of big club's second XIs who obviously carry the philsophy of their first XI. In the UK the only way of playing the game further down the pyramid is by lumping the ball forward. Why is this? Why don’t lesser teams still try and play football and in the process help nurture and develop talent? My point being is that if in the most likely scenario you do not make the grade at a big club then you are pretty much lost forever. In Germany players will go to a smaller club and develop their craft. In England you will just learn to smash the ball forward at Burton.....if you're tall enough to get on their books. Once we get the lower league teams (who have a lot of control over talent) playing football we might improve. It is a sad incitement of English football that when a team like Brighton or Swansea dare to knock the ball around they stand out like sore thumbs and get highlighted for doing so.