[Politics] Electoral fraud

[Jolly Red Giant]

There is deep suspicion that Labour supporters carried out voter fraud in the recent Peterborough by-election and that it edged the result for them in a tight contest.

Nigel Farage sulking about the results and lashing out, does not equate to 'deep suspicion' - it is a load of b*llocks to suggest that voter fraud altered the election result.

 

[beorhthelm]

Shut down all coal and oil power stations?

Do you have a policy for what happens when we get a high pressure system over the country for 3 weeks in February? Obviously when there is no wind and not enough sunshine, many millions (especially the old and the young) would die; what, if anything, would you do to stop this?

or even right now.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

So how come 24 out of 27 member states have ID cards in the EU?

That's their business. The British people have roundly rejected the idea of having to carry Id in this country, if I recall correctly

 

[dejavuatbtn]

The time has certainly come for a national ID card, so many people don't have a current drivers licence or passport and it makes it so hard to satisfy money laundering requirements which are everywhere nowadays. A national photo ID card for everybody over the age or 16 or 18 would solve this and many other issues.

I’d feel safer with national ID cards and would hope, introduced sensibly, could be audited against NINO records to oik out those who steal from our system by having duplicate NINOs. It should also eliminate some frauds and ultimately enable people to be identified easier when they are looking to scam you. Most of us have nothing to hide.

 

[beorhthelm]

What utter bullshit. Not enough sunshine!? There is orders of magnitude more solar energy incident on the earth than we compared with the energy we consume.

thats true, there's just this tricky problem of capturing the energy, or transporting it from say China or Australia to UK at 20:40 on chilly winters evening.

 

[Return of the Rev]

Not really an issue as they are all puppets
https://youtu.be/N7UjnVJA4L8

 

[drew]

Sounds sensible, but it doesn't work. We have a legal right to vote in our country that is enshrined in our citizenship. We do not have a legal obligation to carry ID, purchase utilities, live in a house, own a passport, pass a driving test, prove our identity, open a bank account or any of the other paraphernalia that most of us might take for granted.

We do not have to do any of these things, so forcing people to do so in order to vote would disenfranchise people who don't have nor want those things, and thus limit their legal right to vote. It would be an interesting court case if the Tories get their law through.

As for your first line, there's nothing to stop you murdering your neighbour either. But it would also be against the law.

And don't you think that for the benefit of democracy, people should be able to prove who they are when they wish to exercise their right to vote.

Personally, I think everyone should be registered and voting should be mandatory. I have no problem with carrying an id card and it might eliminate the need to have other forms of id.

 

[beorhthelm]

People like you are the reason millions will die due to climate change. Their blood is on your hands.

i see, blood is on my hands for simply pointing out technical challenges? tough crowd.

 

[GT49er]

Sounds sensible, but it doesn't work. We have a legal right to vote in our country that is enshrined in our citizenship. We do not have a legal obligation to carry ID, purchase utilities, live in a house, own a passport, pass a driving test, prove our identity, open a bank account or any of the other paraphernalia that most of us might take for granted.

We do not have to do any of these things, so forcing people to do so in order to vote would disenfranchise people who don't have nor want those things, and thus limit their legal right to vote. It would be an interesting court case if the Tories get their law through.

Your basic premise is incorrect; there are many things in this country you cannot do without ID. Cashing in and closing a bank savings/investment account is one. Selling a car to a car dealer is another, as is scrapping a car. It may have already happened, but even if it hasn't, you will soon need ID to enter a football match at some grounds, if only to prove that you're not using someone else's season ticket!
In such circumstances, your 'right' counts for sweet FA.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Your basic premise is incorrect; there are many things in this country you cannot do without ID. Cashing in and closing a bank savings/investment account is one. Selling a car to a car dealer is another, as is scrapping a car. It may have already happened, but even if it hasn't, you will soon need ID to enter a football match at some grounds, if only to prove that you're not using someone else's season ticket!
In such circumstances, your 'right' counts for sweet FA.

Not really. No-one is obligated to have ID, that is my basic premise. No-one is entitled to open a bank account, nor sell a car to a dealer, nor enter a football ground. But everyone is entitled to vote

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So you solution is keep using them and kill millions of people? What crap.

Good grief .... stop being so reactionary. Yes we need to shut down the old power stations but it takes years to build infrastructure to replace them - wind turbines, nuclear etc. You can't just turn them off tomorrow. Unless of course you're volunteering to not have any electric to your house ? And of course you've turned off your central heating forever haven't you ? Or is it everyone else that needs to do this and not you ?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

And don't you think that for the benefit of democracy, people should be able to prove who they are when they wish to exercise their right to vote.

Personally, I think everyone should be registered and voting should be mandatory. I have no problem with carrying an id card and it might eliminate the need to have other forms of id.

Maybe, and I have no issue with carrying Id myself, but like I'm pointing out, that wish runs headlong into the law. Law abiding citizens don't have to prove who they are, and are entitled to vote. A strong argument can be made that criminalising fraudulent voting is sufficient.

To actually change the result of an election through fraudulent means would take a hell of a lot of effort, and a hell of a risk of being caught, I'm not sure it's possible.

We also shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the real reason the Tories want to make producing Id mandatory for voting is not to 'stop fraud' but because they know it will reduce voting numbers amongst communities that support their opponents. We've seen exactly this in the states, it's a common playbook for the right wing

 

[GT49er]

Not really. No-one is obligated to have ID, that is my basic premise. No-one is entitled to open a bank account, nor sell a car to a dealer, nor enter a football ground. But everyone is entitled to vote

To quote you: "We do not have a legal obligation to carry ID, purchase utilities, live in a house, own a passport, pass a driving test, prove our identity, open a bank account or any of the other paraphernalia that most of us might take for granted."

We do however have a right to do these things - but cannot do several of them without photo ID! So, to live a 'normal' life and do the things that 'normal' people do, we are obligated to have ID. Whether that's a legal obligation or not, it is an absolute obligation, and there is no legal redress for being denied services because of lack of ID..

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

To quote you: "We do not have a legal obligation to carry ID, purchase utilities, live in a house, own a passport, pass a driving test, prove our identity, open a bank account or any of the other paraphernalia that most of us might take for granted."

We do however have a right to do these things - but cannot do several of them without photo ID! So, to live a 'normal' life and do the things that 'normal' people do, we are obligated to have ID. Whether that's a legal obligation or not, it is an absolute obligation, and there is no legal redress for being denied services because of lack of ID..

Yeah, sure, must be a weird life not doing all those things. And yet plenty of people don't have ID so they must survive somehow

 

[beorhthelm]

Not really. No-one is obligated to have ID, that is my basic premise.

that premise will be addressed by making it an obligation to have the ID and tie it to citizenship, national insurance.

 

[Saunders]

Your basic premise is incorrect; there are many things in this country you cannot do without ID. Cashing in and closing a bank savings/investment account is one. Selling a car to a car dealer is another, as is scrapping a car. It may have already happened, but even if it hasn't, you will soon need ID to enter a football match at some grounds, if only to prove that you're not using someone else's season ticket!
In such circumstances, your 'right' counts for sweet FA.

You are wrong if a customer doesnt have a passport or driving licence there are other ways of proving who you are financial institutions cant demand a 70 year old pay for a passport or apply to drive for example. The ID scheme was a great idea but it got abandoned for some bizarre reason. More and more places demand photo ID though even getting into a pub on west street so it is ID through the back door.

 

[Saunders]

that premise will be addressed by making it an obligation to have the ID and tie it to citizenship, national insurance.

Yea they like to get berty big bollocks with things like that but remember the Windrush scandal.

 

[GT49er]

You are wrong if a customer doesnt have a passport or driving licence there are other ways of proving who you are financial institutions cant demand a 70 year old pay for a passport or apply to drive for example. The ID scheme was a great idea but it got abandoned for some bizarre reason. More and more places demand photo ID though even getting into a pub on west street so it is ID through the back door.

To quote you, "if a customer doesn't have a passport or driving licence there are other ways of proving who you are" - that is true - but financial institutions (and car dealers) can and do refuse to accept them, and refuse to provide you with a service. These are just the examples that have happened to me. Doubtless there are others.

I agree with you, though, that we do have ID through the back door.

 

[GT49er]

Yeah, sure, must be a weird life not doing all those things. And yet plenty of people don't have ID so they must survive somehow

Try it.

 

[Mental Lental]

But everyone is entitled to vote

Convicted criminals serving custodial sentences can't.