[Food] Eating less meat & dairy.

[Falmer Wizard]

It is healthier and there is also the environmental impact

I have always eaten plenty of vegetables and fruit but no way of giving up meat whilst China, India and USA are not changing their habits.
I had no idea that vegans also do not include Milk,eggs,cheese and chicken in their diets,what a limited list of meals await them

 

[Falmer Wizard]

There are lots of variables based on diet, genetics, healthcare, education levels and income. But, overall, eating less, exercise, drinking less alcohol and avoiding red meats can tip things back towards making pension age. The trouble with our lives I think is the amount of tampering and dodgy procedures involved in manufacturing our food. Bacon used to be a way of preserving Pork for times of hardship but now its pumped full of Nitrates, Colourants, chemicals and water ( because water is cheap and heavy and bacon is sold by weight ) and probably is pretty toxic mostly now days.

One of the things that is always fun to do is to check the ingredients list on a pack of sausages ....... if you buy pork sausages you expect them to be pretty much pork..... we have official rules on minimum meat content and it varies between 50% and 90% mostly depending on the quality and how much you can afford to pay......next time you are in a supermarket its scary to look at the ingredients list on a pack of Richmond Irish Recipe Sausages .... pay particular note of the percentage of Pork meat... its a real eye opener !

You need to buy Heck sausages which are 97% MEAT

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I have always eaten plenty of vegetables and fruit but no way of giving up meat whilst China, India and USA are not changing their habits.
I had no idea that vegans also do not include Milk,eggs,cheese and chicken in their diets,what a limited list of meals await them

I’ve never understood this line of thought. Why should the actions of China, India and the US influence your decisions? And, in reference to quote in bold, I don’t know whether to correct you or simply feel sorry for you

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I’ve never understood this line of thought. Why should the actions of China, India and the US influence your decisions? And, in reference to quote in bold, I don’t know whether to correct you or simply feel sorry for you

The guy’s a brain dead Palace idiot who [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] refuses to ban for some strange reason, even though he continually posts on match day threads as a BHA fan.

 

[larus]

You say soy is bad for your health and animal fat is good in the same breath. Brave move considering consuming animal products has been linked to our top diseases and illnesses. Heart disease, type-2 diabetes, many forms of cancer, strokes, hypertension, dementia and osteoporosis. What evidence is there that the consumption of soy is bad for you? And have you told Asia?

In my opinion, you are wrong. Type-2 diabetes is linked to in insulin resistance.

When you eat carbs, the blood sugar spikes. The body doesn’t like blood sugar being too high so it produces insulin to counteract the increase in blood sugars.

You may want to ask the question why do we have prevalence of heart disease, cancers, type-2 diabetes in the west now? When people were eating more animal fats (things like dripping/lard are actually good to eat) they were healthier. People now eat over-processed foods.

And soy - hmm. Do you mean soy beans or processed soy? Just one article of many which shows there are potential benefits and also risks.

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/diet-nutrition/a20707020/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-you/

I’ve been health conscious for many years and it amazes me the amount of people that get their opinions from headlines like ‘meat is bad for you’ without realising that they don’t know that. These ‘reports’ are often bases on simple data analysis, without considering the many other factors which impact health. For example, eating patterns, other food intake.

You’re welcome to eat soya if you want to - I’ll stick to full-fat milk/butter and animal fats thanks.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

In my opinion, you are wrong. Type-2 diabetes is linked to in insulin resistance.

When you eat carbs, the blood sugar spikes. The body doesn’t like blood sugar being too high so it produces insulin to counteract the increase in blood sugars.

You may want to ask the question why do we have prevalence of heart disease, cancers, type-2 diabetes in the west now? When people were eating more animal fats (things like dripping/lard are actually good to eat) they were healthier. People now eat over-processed foods.

And soy - hmm. Do you mean soy beans or processed soy? Just one article of many which shows there are potential benefits and also risks.

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/diet-nutrition/a20707020/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-you/

I’ve been health conscious for many years and it amazes me the amount of people that get their opinions from headlines like ‘meat is bad for you’ without realising that they don’t know that. These ‘reports’ are often bases on simple data analysis, without considering the many other factors which impact health. For example, eating patterns, other food intake.

You’re welcome to eat soya if you want to - I’ll stick to full-fat milk/butter and animal fats thanks.

With all due respect, your opinion is irrelevant considering the sheer amount of medical research that says the exact opposite. I recommend watching ‘Uprooting the Leading Causes of Death’ (YouTube) and ‘What the Health’ (Netflix).

Studies also suggest that a plant based diet can reverse diabetes.

https://www.pcrm.org/health-topics/diabetes

And, in regards to soy…

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/

I don’t mean to come across as a patronising arse, although I fully appreciate I probably am, but the medical science just doesn’t back up your opinion

 

[larus]

Great advice, I have done something similar but you only enter ketosis if you cut out carbs to virtually zero for a sustained period.

Its true what you say about fats, good fats are healthy and a good energy source, people buy skimmed milk thinking it's healthier - it's not !

Exactly. The amount of people that get their advice from the largest headlines on the BBC website. Jeez.

I need to start doing some longer fasts too - 40 hours or so.

Since I started doing it, my body fat has dropped even though I had a reasonably healthy diet before (lots of eg, salad, veg etc.), but I’ve now gone (for example) from skimmed milk to full-fat.

I feel so much better - I used to feel tired quite a bit but now, not at all.

Calorie reduced lifestyle is also much better for you - there’s been numerous studies which show that the body works much better with less calories. They’ve proved this with mice and restricting calories for some and high calorie diets for others. Those with reduced calories have more energy, live longer. Those with high calories are sluggish.

So many don’t want to consider this as “food is important” to them. To me, food is a food source and I don’t live to eat.

FFS, people go to a fast-‘food’ (call that food lol) joint and then order diet-coke. The crap in diet drinks is even worse than sugar - yep, it’s that bad for you. So many people are so dumb in regards health.
Never mind, they can go to the doctors and get more chemicals prescribed to cure the problems of the other chemicals they are shoving into their system.

Another thing - mental health is improved by a sensible diet too. Anyway, I’ll stop here haha.

 

[larus]

With all due respect, your opinion is irrelevant considering the sheer amount of medical research that says the exact opposite. I recommend watching ‘Uprooting the Leading Causes of Death’ (YouTube) and ‘What the Health’ (Netflix).

Studies also suggest that a plant based diet can reverse diabetes.

https://www.pcrm.org/health-topics/diabetes

And, in regards to soy…

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/

I don’t mean to come across as a patronising arse, although I fully appreciate I probably am, but the medical science just doesn’t back up your opinion

You’re not patronising, just ill informed.

I would not disagree that a plant based diet can reverse diabetes - doh!. The issue with diabetes is carbs - clue for you. Meat isn’t carbs. Carbs cause a sugar spike, and insulin production in the body. So, the benefit come from reduced carbs and intermittent fasting.

There’s a saying which describes you perfectly “the emptiest vessels make the loudest noise”. You are so blinkered that you won’t consider that what you think is possible wrong. Maybe, just maybe, do yourself a favour and watch a few of the videos on YouTube and open your blinkered mind just a little. Yeah, that’s not going to happen.

 

[SeagullDubai]

Made a few lifestyle changes as a result of some worrying results from blood and urine tests. Cut down on cholesterol and carbs ( no bread and spuds) cut out beer, no takeaways and walk 10k steps a day. and eat s
low glycemic fruit. Shed 10 kilos in 3 months with another 7 to go. It’s tough going sometimes but worth it in the long run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[m@goo]

no way of giving up meat whilst China, India and USA are not changing their habits.

We can't think like this otherwise nothing would change for the better. We as a society and a country have to lead the way and set an example when it comes to environmental matters and then we can put the pressure on those countries to follow suit.

 

[m@goo]

Ps. if you don't agree with or can't see the point of eating less meat, I don't care and you don't need to say anything.

Well that worked well

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

You’re not patronising, just ill informed.

I would not disagree that a plant based diet can reverse diabetes - doh!. The issue with diabetes is carbs - clue for you. Meat isn’t carbs. Carbs cause a sugar spike, and insulin production in the body. So, the benefit come from reduced carbs and intermittent fasting.

There’s a saying which describes you perfectly “the emptiest vessels make the loudest noise”. You are so blinkered that you won’t consider that what you think is possible wrong. Maybe, just maybe, do yourself a favour and watch a few of the videos on YouTube and open your blinkered mind just a little. Yeah, that’s not going to happen.

You say I’m ill informed, yet you’ve provided one article to back up your opinion. Yet my statements are backed up by leading nutritional and medical bodies (the WHO, The American Dietetic Association and the British Dietetic Association), medical practitioners across the world and countless peer reviewed studies. But, sure, feel free to tell me I’m the one whose ill informed

You’re also massively oversimplifying the relationship between carbohydrates and diabetes. Whilst, they do affect your blood sugar levels, many carbs have essential vitamins, minerals, and fiber. So choosing those ones, such as whole grains, fruits, and vegetables over starchy alternatives is, by all accounts, absolutely fine. Ergo the plant based diet reversing diabetes. But I’m sure being the well informed person this discussion you already knew that vegetables, grains and fruit are all carbs… Moreover, whilst meat may not be carbs, the saturated fat prevents insulin from functioning properly, as referenced in the link I provided earlier.

 

[Nitram]

Not had it myself but my daughter says Seitan chicken, vegan, is a great substitute and as good as normal chicken.

 

[Dr Bandler]

You say I’m ill informed, yet you’ve provided one article to back up your opinion. Yet my statements are backed up by leading nutritional and medical bodies (the WHO, The American Dietetic Association and the British Dietetic Association), medical practitioners across the world and countless peer reviewed studies. But, sure, feel free to tell me I’m the one whose ill informed

You’re also massively oversimplifying the relationship between carbohydrates and diabetes. Whilst, they do affect your blood sugar levels, many carbs have essential vitamins, minerals, and fiber. So choosing those ones, such as whole grains, fruits, and vegetables over starchy alternatives is, by all accounts, absolutely fine. Ergo the plant based diet reversing diabetes. But I’m sure being the well informed person this discussion you already knew that vegetables, grains and fruit are all carbs… Moreover, whilst meat may not be carbs, the saturated fat prevents insulin from functioning properly, as referenced in the link I provided earlier.

I am afraid I have to side with larus on this. I have three examples for you if you are interested.

1. I reversed my insulin resistance and lost 10kg by going keto and reducing carbs massively. Like larus I also feel better mentally.
2. My friend lost 3 stone and reversed Type 2 diabetes by going extremely low carb (on the the advise of an NHS nutritionist, some of which are up to date on this, some not).
3. My brother in law transformed his health and diabetes by going low carb, again losing weight and having more energy.

All of these were done eating organic meat, fat, and greens. It can be managed using apps like Carb Manager.

There is a lot if misinformation and over-simplification going round. Meat and dairy production is not bad for the planet and people's health per se; it is the mass produced, commercial production of such that is bad all-round. If you produce meat and vegetables in a biodynamic and organic way, like Plaw Hatch and Tablehurst Farms out near Forest Row, then it is beneficial for the earth and for us. We get our produce from there when we can. Growing masses of soy to feed cattle is hugely unhealthy for them and for us. They should be grass fed only. It changes the make-up of the meat.

I will link to one article here debunking the link between red meat and cancer

https://chriskresser.com/red-meat-cancer-again-will-it-ever-stop/

but there are others. There is also the film and the book "Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet" which are worth looking at.

Add into the mix that many are finding health benefits from the Carnivore DIet (not that I have adopted that yet), and things are not always as simple as presented.

Written with good intentions, and not to argue.

 

[Elbow750]

While I don't claim to be a full blown vegetarian or vegan I am actively trying to eat less meat and dairy for environmental and health reasons. I'm not trying to virtue signal here, I just want people's recomendations and advice on nicest supermarket ranges/products and even fast food & take away options.

Obviously there's Quorn but I find their products often don't quite hit the mark with taste and texture. I've had Linda McCartney sausages which are pretty good.

I had the Burger King plant based Whopper today and it was really good! Tasted like a proper chargrilled burger.

What do YOU like?

Ps. if you don't agree with or can't see the point of eating less meat, I don't care and you don't need to say anything.

My wife and 2 daughters are veggie/vegan so whilst I do have meat sometimes, I mostly eat veggie too. We usually use vegetables instead of meat substitutes . Red Peppers and Aubergines are particularly tasty in stir-fry, cauliflower, potatoes and lentils in curry and beans in chillis. Roasted squash, especially crown prince stuffed with mushrooms, leeks/ peppers and vegan haggis is brilliant in winter, as are oven roasted vegetable with garlic and herbs. Quick cheap and very tasty. Get a good recipe book, like Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall.

But there are times when its handy to pop in a frozen Linda Mccartney sausage or three with your Jacket spud and their vegan Hoisin Duck is brilliant in a wrap with red peppers mushrooms and spring onions. Tasty and super quick.

I also buy vegan mince (Tesco, Linda McCartney, Waitrose, Morrisons) which is great in chilli and shepards pies. Homemade sausage rolls are fabulous. Mix any veg sausages with loads of diced apple, sage, rosemary, black pepper or chill if brave and roll into pastry, either homemade to Delia Smiths recipe (but no lard or butter).

Cook and serve warm with red current or cranberry jelly and its a real treat. Prefect for parties/ mates round (remember those days) and 6 sausages ( about £2) goes a very long way.

Enjoy.

 

[Elbow750]

You need to buy Heck sausages which are 97% MEAT

When I do eat meat, which is not that often these days, I do like a Heck Sausage.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I am afraid I have to side with larus on this. I have three examples for you if you are interested.

1. I reversed my insulin resistance and lost 10kg by going keto and reducing carbs massively. Like larus I also feel better mentally.
2. My friend lost 3 stone and reversed Type 2 diabetes by going extremely low carb (on the the advise of an NHS nutritionist, some of which are up to date on this, some not).
3. My brother in law transformed his health and diabetes by going low carb, again losing weight and having more energy.

All of these were done eating organic meat, fat, and greens. It can be managed using apps like Carb Manager.

There is a lot if misinformation and over-simplification going round. Meat and dairy production is not bad for the planet and people's health per se; it is the mass produced, commercial production of such that is bad all-round. If you produce meat and vegetables in a biodynamic and organic way, like Plaw Hatch and Tablehurst Farms out near Forest Row, then it is beneficial for the earth and for us. We get our produce from there when we can. Growing masses of soy to feed cattle is hugely unhealthy for them and for us. They should be grass fed only. It changes the make-up of the meat.

I will link to one article here debunking the link between red meat and cancer

https://chriskresser.com/red-meat-cancer-again-will-it-ever-stop/

but there are others. There is also the film and the book "Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet" which are worth looking at.

Add into the mix that many are finding health benefits from the Carnivore DIet (not that I have adopted that yet), and things are not always as simple as presented.

Written with good intentions, and not to argue.

First off, I’m glad you feel better in yourself. I too have felt similar when I went vegan three years ago. Physically and mentally much better. I even shaved 6 minutes off my 5km time

I am aware that there evidence that a ketogenic diet also has been shown to improve blood sugar control for patients with type 2 diabetes, at least in the short term. But, as I’ve said above, so has a whole food plant based diet rich in nutrient dense… er… carbs.

I question the long term health benefits of Keto and the “carnivore” diet as they are reliant on foods that are linked to the health issues I have outlined previously (https://youtu.be/30gEiweaAVQ)

I will read that article you have linked, however seeing Kresser get absolutely destroyed by James Wilks on Joe Rogan’s podcast re Game Changers, makes me question whether he really is the right person to use as a basis of this argument. Do you have any other evidence to back up your hypothesis?

As for grass fed animals, sure it’s better than factory farming, but even free roaming grass fed animals don’t sequester anywhere near as much greenhouse gas as they produce so the argument that it’s good for the environment doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny. Moreover, the idea of local produce being more environmentally friendly also doesn’t bear fruit because it implies that the main environmental impact is through transport, which just isn’t true. It still requires an inordinate amount of resources and produces a great deal of waste and pollution.

Unfortunately, I doubt whether Larus, yourself and I will ever see eye to eye on this. As you say, there is a lot of conflicting, often misleading, information out there. We both see ourselves on the “right” side of things. My lifestyle works for me and yours for you. It will be interesting which has the better long term effects. Let’s have this discussion again in a decade and see where we’re at

 

[jcdenton08]

Mostly what this comes down to, is that people who don't like people eating meat (animal rights protestors and the like) try to hide their true reason for trying to "convert" other people to vegetarianism.

They'll hide it behind other more palatable (forgive the pun) reasons, such as health benefits - many of which are dubious - and the new, most fashionable one, "the climate". People like feeling they aren't part of the problem with the environment, right? Let's play to their ego to get them to stop doing the thing we don't like.

The truth is that vegans and the kind of people who'd have a plant based burger have an issue with eating meat. They don't like eating the flesh of animals and expect everyone else to feel the same.

Unlike most opinions or choices based on moral choice or personal preference, these people are most insistent and vocal about how they are right and you are wrong

It's about, to catch the current zeitgeist, "optics". Animal rights folks have gotten a bit smarter. They realise that being a greasy, unwashed, unemployed freak lving in a treehouse wearing hemp underpants is not "good optics" for the cause. You'll attract the other nutters, sure, but not middle class middle England.

Oh, but alleged health benefits - saving the planet? That works a lot better than "ANIMALS ARE OUR FRIENDS" to the average person.

 

[Brian Parsons]

Mostly what this comes down to, is that people who don't like people eating meat (animal rights protestors and the like) try to hide their true reason for trying to "convert" other people to vegetarianism.

They'll hide it behind other more palatable (forgive the pun) reasons, such as health benefits - many of which are dubious - and the new, most fashionable one, "the climate". People like feeling they aren't part of the problem with the environment, right? Let's play to their ego to get them to stop doing the thing we don't like.

The truth is that vegans and the kind of people who'd have a plant based burger have an issue with eating meat. They don't like eating the flesh of animals and expect everyone else to feel the same.

Unlike most opinions or choices based on moral choice or personal preference, these people are most insistent and vocal about how they are right and you are wrong

It's about, to catch the current zeitgeist, "optics". Animal rights folks have gotten a bit smarter. They realise that being a greasy, unwashed, unemployed freak lving in a treehouse wearing hemp underpants is not "good optics" for the cause. You'll attract the other nutters, sure, but not middle class middle England.

Oh, but alleged health benefits - saving the planet? That works a lot better than "ANIMALS ARE OUR FRIENDS" to the average person.

WOW, absolutely bang on correct.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

 

[Dr Bandler]

First off, I’m glad you feel better in yourself. I too have felt similar when I went vegan three years ago. Physically and mentally much better. I even shaved 6 minutes off my 5km time

I am aware that there evidence that a ketogenic diet also has been shown to improve blood sugar control for patients with type 2 diabetes, at least in the short term. But, as I’ve said above, so has a whole food plant based diet rich in nutrient dense… er… carbs.

I question the long term health benefits of Keto and the “carnivore” diet as they are reliant on foods that are linked to the health issues I have outlined previously (https://youtu.be/30gEiweaAVQ)

I will read that article you have linked, however seeing Kresser get absolutely destroyed by James Wilks on Joe Rogan’s podcast re Game Changers, makes me question whether he really is the right person to use as a basis of this argument. Do you have any other evidence to back up your hypothesis?

As for grass fed animals, sure it’s better than factory farming, but even free roaming grass fed animals don’t sequester anywhere near as much greenhouse gas as they produce so the argument that it’s good for the environment doesn’t hold up to much scrutiny. Moreover, the idea of local produce being more environmentally friendly also doesn’t bear fruit because it implies that the main environmental impact is through transport, which just isn’t true. It still requires an inordinate amount of resources and produces a great deal of waste and pollution.

Unfortunately, I doubt whether Larus, yourself and I will ever see eye to eye on this. As you say, there is a lot of conflicting, often misleading, information out there. We both see ourselves on the “right” side of things. My lifestyle works for me and yours for you. It will be interesting which has the better long term effects. Let’s have this discussion again in a decade and see where we’re at

Indeed - let's hope with are both in fine fettle in ten years to keep on debating and finding fresh evidence.. It is good that we can discuss this rationally without getting personal or aggressive. Of course, if one of you or I drop dead tomorrow while the other thrives until 95 it still does not prove that one diet or the other is better. We would have to see how each of us would have done on the other diet in a parallel universe, and there could still be confounding factors.

Anyway, regarding the Joe Rogan interview and debate, please take a look at Chris Kresser's thoughts afterwards here - https://chriskresser.com/reflections-on-the-game-changers-debate/, plus this from Paul Saladino MD - https://www.peak-human.com/post/did...t-against-chris-kresser-with-paul-saladino-md. It is not so clear that Wilks actually won on fair debating and facts.

Finally, if you don't fancy Chris Kresser as a source of legitimate info please try Dr Ben Bikman, who has a lot to say (with evidence) on the damage of insulin resistance and how low carb is the best way to tackle it.

All the best.