[Football] Duffy

[Bold Seagull]

Can I just say this time last season with D&D in the team, and us set up more defensively we'd conceded 2 more goals after 24 games.

We're playing a more open, attacking game, which is what everyone wanted AND we have actually conceded less. Yeah, we went away to Bournemouth and it seems it's Webster's fault, but at around this time 12 months ago we went to Fulham and conceded 4 after having a 2 goal lead!

I won't mind seeing Duffy in the side, but I'm not 100% certain the manager is getting this wrong. Duffy has his fair share of clangers in him.

 

[One Love]

No. I just think it might help you to learn to stop the scapegoating you all seem to be uniting in right now. How else are you lot going to learn? Barnes clearly hasn't taught you much has he?

Didn't Webster receive constant criticism from some of our fans last night? Coincidence that it's now going on NSC with you all thumbing up each others criticism of him even when it's bullshit like "Barnes and wood were never criticised by our fans how is that related to Webster?" ?

I personally believe Webster will prove to be a better player than Duffy in the future, especially under Potterball.

However we are in a fight and Duffy would be my choice in that fight not Webster, especially as Webster is making a lot of errors. His downing tools when he made that mistake for the Bournemouth third goal and not trying to recover was not a good sign.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

Can I just say this time last season with D&D in the team, and us set up more defensively we'd conceded 2 more goals after 24 games.

We're playing a more open, attacking game, which is what everyone wanted AND we have actually conceded less. Yeah, we went away to Bournemouth and it seems it's Webster's fault, but at around this time 12 months ago we went to Fulham and conceded 4 after having a 2 goal lead!

I won't mind seeing Duffy in the side, but I'm not 100% certain the manager is getting this wrong. Duffy has his fair share of clangers in him.

Last season Dunk and Duffy were expected, along with the rest of the team, to sit back and absorb wave after wave of pressure. This season the team dominates the ball which gives the opposition far less opportunities, yet we’ve only conceded 2 less. I’m not sure that’s such a clever stat.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Last season Dunk and Duffy were expected, along with the rest of the team, to sit back and absorb wave after wave of pressure. This season the team dominates the ball which gives the opposition far less opportunities, yet we’ve only conceded 2 less. I’m not sure that’s such a clever stat.

Waves of pressure that is not resulting in goals which is leaving us open to counter attacks and teams basically setting up to absorb pressure then pounce on our mistakes.

If we keep losing the ball while applying pressure ahead of the ball, then we are going to be exposed - the Villa equaliser a case in point.

We're playing with less cover, but if you don't score and give the ball away cheaply, then your defense is going to be exposed time and time again.

 

[Stat Brother]

Can I just say this time last season with D&D in the team, and us set up more defensively we'd conceded 2 more goals after 24 games.

We're playing a more open, attacking game, which is what everyone wanted AND we have actually conceded less. Yeah, we went away to Bournemouth and it seems it's Webster's fault, but at around this time 12 months ago we went to Fulham and conceded 4 after having a 2 goal lead!

I won't mind seeing Duffy in the side, but I'm not 100% certain the manager is getting this wrong. Duffy has his fair share of clangers in him.

I think it's more to do with the nature of the goals that have been conceded.

So many have, to us amateurs, looked like goals that could have been stopped by a meathead charging at the ball.

Irrespective of [MENTION=33578]Stephen Seagull[/MENTION]'s opinion I firmly believe we have one of the world's best at that.
For me that then moves the question onto:-

Does Webster currently provide enough positives from the rest of his game to offset that loss?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think it's more to do with the nature of the goals that have been conceded.

So many have, to us amateurs, looked like goals that could have been stopped by a meathead charging at the ball.

Irrespective of [MENTION=33578]Stephen Seagull[/MENTION]'s opinion I firmly believe we have one of the world's best at that.
For me that then moves the question onto:-

Does Webster currently provide enough positives from the rest of his game to offset that loss?

I would say I dont know.

I have to assume/believe Potter and his staff have very good reasons/stats etc. for why Webster is ahead of Duffy.

If Duffy lines up against West Ham, good for him for getting his chance back, but I don't see that move as a sudden plug for why we're conceding. The issue with Duffy is that he has to read the game more quickly because there is more space between our midfield and defense. The cover he enjoyed last season isn't going to be there as much, so it needs a lot more craft, guile and reading of the game.

While Webster has made errors, the moments he steps out and intercepts opposition passes or cuts off attacks looks simple enough, but actually is the work of a defender who is reading the game and reacting quickly.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

Waves of pressure that is not resulting in goals which is leaving us open to counter attacks and teams basically setting up to absorb pressure then pounce on our mistakes.

If we keep losing the ball while applying pressure ahead of the ball, then we are going to be exposed - the Villa equaliser a case in point.

We're playing with less cover, but if you don't score and give the ball away cheaply, then your defense is going to be exposed time and time again.

So what’s going to give? Either we need better forwards to make our chances count, better midfielders to stop the defence being exposed, or we need Van Dijk and Koulibally. Failing that we need a new system.
The thing that confuses me is the impossibly narrow formation that we play, how our full backs don’t actually get up the pitch that much, play with 4 central midfielders yet get overrun in the middle. Why is there no protection, why do the defenders constantly get caught out?

 

[Stat Brother]

I would say I dont know.

I have to assume/believe Potter and his staff have very good reasons/stats etc. for why Webster is ahead of Duffy.

If Duffy lines up against West Ham, good for him for getting his chance back, but I don't see that move as a sudden plug for why we're conceding. The issue with Duffy is that he has to read the game more quickly because there is more space between our midfield and defense. The cover he enjoyed last season isn't going to be there as much, so it needs a lot more craft, guile and reading of the game.

While Webster has made errors, the moments he steps out and intercepts opposition passes or cuts off attacks looks simple enough, but actually is the work of a defender who is reading the game and reacting quickly.

Yep it's a tricky one.

Montoya has more freedom forward with Webster behind him. (Even I've noticed that)
Alzate doesn't even get to the halfway line rather negating the need for Webster's attributes.

Duffy can't do 90% of what Webster can, but oh boy missing that other 10% is pretty vital.

 

[Bold Seagull]

So what’s going to give? Either we need better forwards to make our chances count, better midfielders to stop the defence being exposed, or we need Van Dijk and Koulibally. Failing that we need a new system.
Then thing that confuses me is the impossibly narrow formation that we play, how our full backs don’t actually get upon the pitch that much, play with 4 central midfielders yet get overrun in the middle. Why is there no protection, why do the defenders constantly get caught out?

I don't profess to have the answers. I just know blaming Webster and believing Duffy is a solution is not actually solving a more complex set of issues through the side.

It's more about belief than it is personnel. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with Duffy starting next game, but neither do I have an issue with Webster retaining his place as I don't think that is the principle problem.

The main thing is belief, and its fragile and not easily solved as Hughton found last season and it's spell has befuddled us once again. Hughton went the route of just getting more resolute to get us over the line. I'm not sure Potter will go that route, he'll be hoping we play our way out, and we'll get a break somewhere and the belief will come flooding back.

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

I don't profess to have the answers. I just know blaming Webster and believing Duffy is a solution is not actually solving a more complex set of issues through the side.

It's more about belief than it is personnel. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with Duffy starting next game, but neither do I have an issue with Webster retaining his place as I don't think that is the principle problem.

The main thing is belief, and its fragile and not easily solved as Hughton found last season and it's spell has befuddled us once again. Hughton went the route of just getting more resolute to get us over the line. I'm not sure Potter will go that route, he'll be hoping we play our way out, and we'll get a break somewhere and the belief will come flooding back.

Good post.
I don’t think for one minute that Duffy is the fix-all solution, but Webster has looked very shaky. Earlier in the season Potter took Maupay out of the team to refocus, maybe Webster needs the same care.

 

[Lush]

I don't profess to have the answers. I just know blaming Webster and believing Duffy is a solution is not actually solving a more complex set of issues through the side.

It's more about belief than it is personnel. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with Duffy starting next game, but neither do I have an issue with Webster retaining his place as I don't think that is the principle problem.

The main thing is belief, and its fragile and not easily solved as Hughton found last season and it's spell has befuddled us once again. Hughton went the route of just getting more resolute to get us over the line. I'm not sure Potter will go that route, he'll be hoping we play our way out, and we'll get a break somewhere and the belief will come flooding back.

This. I’m hoping that Potter has some psychologist tricks up his sleeve. And money for a strong attacking Salah/Mane type midfielder. And is keeping everyone who can shoot behind after training for extra practice.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Yep it's a tricky one.

Montoya has more freedom forward with Webster behind him. (Even I've noticed that)
Alzate doesn't even get to the halfway line rather negating the need for Webster's attributes.

Duffy can't do 90% of what Webster can, but oh boy missing that other 10% is pretty vital.

It was actually the home game against Bournemouth where it really hit me. Duffy too late spotted a Bournemouth break in the first half on their left, went charging out, missed everything and everyone and was left stood by our dugout while they broke and had a clear chance, maybe the kind of chance they missed then but scored Tues night.

Duffy wouldn't have needed to make that kind of decision last season, but with the space in front of them our centre halves are having to make those kind of front foot getting forward to challenge or intercept decisions this season. Webster probably does this better than Dunk, he is as you say however lacking Duffy's strength, power and outright determination in just clearing someone out, or just the very basics of defending, and that is what people are seeing.

That mistake at home to Bournemouth, along with one or two minor errors, despite the win, is imho why Duffy lost his place the next game home to Chelsea.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Good post.
I don’t think for one minute that Duffy is the fix-all solution, but Webster has looked very shaky. Earlier in the season Potter took Maupay out of the team to refocus, maybe Webster needs the same care.

Can't disagree with that (your point, not saying mine was a good post ), and given I'm going to West Ham in one of my limited away games this season, I won't be upset if that happens. Having Duffy to step in is a real strength in that department. It's one area we don't lack top quality cover.

 

[dazzer6666]

It was actually the home game against Bournemouth where it really hit me. Duffy too late spotted a Bournemouth break in the first half on their left, went charging out, missed everything and everyone and was left stood by our dugout while they broke and had a clear chance, maybe the kind of chance they missed then but scored Tues night.

Duffy wouldn't have needed to make that kind of decision last season, but with the space in front of them our centre halves are having to make those kind of front foot getting forward to challenge or intercept decisions this season. Webster probably does this better than Dunk, he is as you say however lacking Duffy's strength, power and outright determination in just clearing someone out, or just the very basics of defending, and that is what people are seeing.

That mistake at home to Bournemouth, along with one or two minor errors, despite the win, is imho why Duffy lost his place the next game home to Chelsea.

That was horrendous.........would have been a goal against a a better team.

Duffy is an absolute beast in the air and we definitely miss that. I think Dunk misses him too (and perhaps Ryan, hence him looking more nervous recently). He never loses a header, ever. He is also, though, seemingly just about incapable of a decent long ball - whenever he’s played recently it’s been noticeable how many balls get shanked into the stands by him.

Need a clone of half Webster/half Duffy.........

 

[peterward]

Yes that's correct.

Not rated as a footballer.

But still one of the world's best defenders.


As I keep pointing out, and you keep missing, there is a huge difference between being a 'footballer' and a 'defender'.

Shane can, will, and does, DEFEND his goal as one of the worlds best.

But Shane can't do what the other lesser defenders, but better footballers, can:-

Pace
Guille
Control
Technique
etc

Mr Potter wants all of that from all his defenders as well as defending.
He's seems prepared to accept defensive shortcomings in favour of overall play.

Mr Hughton wanted the blunt instrument that was Duffy, using Dunk for the finesse.


Shane is a throwback centre back, a huge Irish wall, hard as nails, blunt enough to ride bare arsed to Canterbury on and rather at odds with top flight 21st century football.

What he can do, DEFEND, puts him above most of his contemporaries.
What he can't do, FOOTBALL, stops him from being even an addendum to that conversation.

John Terry was in the same Ilk, not a classy ball player, no pace... But solid defender, a leader, brave, would throw himself in front of a bus to stop a goal, blood and guts defending.

 

[Easy 10]

It was actually the home game against Bournemouth where it really hit me. Duffy too late spotted a Bournemouth break in the first half on their left, went charging out, missed everything and everyone and was left stood by our dugout while they broke and had a clear chance, maybe the kind of chance they missed then but scored Tues night.

Webster did the exact same thing v Wolves - lunged into a tackle by the dugouts, missed it, they broke swiftly into the yawning chasm of space left behind him and scored.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Webster did the exact same thing v Wolves - lunged into a tackle by the dugouts, missed it, they broke swiftly into the yawning chasm of space left behind him and scored.

Yeah, I'm not saying Webster is perfect or mistake free. It's the kind of chance we are giving away this season. Webster missed that because we gave the ball away cheaply in possession and he was caught out - was it Propper played it blind square?

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

Yeah, I'm not saying Webster is perfect or mistake free. It's the kind of chance we are giving away this season. Webster missed that because we gave the ball away cheaply in possession and he was caught out - was it Propper played it blind square?

It was indeed Pröpper, a shocking pass.

 

[Stat Brother]

John Terry was in the same Ilk, not a classy ball player, no pace... But solid defender, a leader, brave, would throw himself in front of a bus to stop a goal, blood and guts defending.

Worryingly for you I was going to use the Terry example myself, but didn't want to confuse Steve any further.
You don't want to be on the same train of thought as me!

But yes i completely agree.

As different a centre back to VVD, and all those who want to be like VVD (yet not fit to wipe his boots (even if they cost more money )) as you can get, yet almost as effective at the one job of stopping goals.

 

[Easy 10]

Yeah, I'm not saying Webster is perfect or mistake free. It's the kind of chance we are giving away this season. Webster missed that because we gave the ball away cheaply in possession and he was caught out - was it Propper played it blind square?

It was indeed, but that one led to the 2nd goal. The Webster miss was their first.