Duffy tweet

[Hamilton]

But you can argue that for almost every other European country inc other parts of the (for now) United Kingdom and yet they do have stronger defined identities today. Right now. Currently. England is very diverse and tribal which makes it hard to define in any unified sense. Maybe that's our definition. The square peg that won't fit into any round holes! I'm sure there are better definitions mind!

Oh I think we would be able to define Englishness if we tried. I'm also sure that many Germans, French, Spanish and Italians would say that there identities are being eroded as well. They are not. They may be changing, but then again all identities change as time and events shape them.

Like you, I like celebrating my Englishness, just as I'm fully supportive of the Irish, Scots, French, Welsh etc etc celebrating theirs. It's important. I think Notting Hill Carnival for example is a very English thing - celebrating a culture that has been brought to our capital city and has enriched it over time. I think Pride is very English - that gradual acceptance over many years that men and women should be able to live their lives the way they want as long as they are not harming anyone else.

We could write lists of what's 'English' and be very proud. Equally, so could other nations.

Our identities are carved into us by events. Some peaceful and slow burning; some sudden and violent. Shane Duffy grew up in a community where that violence was all too prevalent. McGuinness may well have been a terrorist, and that will always be unforgivable, but he fought for his community and then he changed. Mandela famously support the reconciliation of those that had persecuted him so that South Africa might stand a chance. We all need to take that character forward in my humble view.

 

[Steve in Japan]

What is it in you view, to be English these days? nb: not British, that's on its way out if not in the Skip already! Wales, Ireland and Scotland all have strong, confident sense of identity but ours appears less easy to define other than perhaps to be English is to embrace all other cultures almost to the expense of our own. So what is it to be English these days, if you don't have another nationality within the immediate lineage to celebrate?

This was quite a thought provoking piece yesterday if interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...england-avoid-a-meltdown-of-national-identity

Even more thought provoking are the comments below the article, where several contributers would like to see London independent of the UK. It's a strange world we live in at the moment.

 

[portlock seagull]

FIFA have been doing it for years!

I find that question perplexing as it is constantly asked of English people but not others. I have lived abroad several times and the question never arose in the media or anywhere else. These places did not have any more or less of a national identity than we do. If you are unsure of English national identity try spending a period living abroad and when you return you will see the Englishness that is common to all parts of our country. It doesn't need explaining.

How patronising.

 

[AmexRuislip]

How patronising.

Why?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Lots of relatively positive comments about MM today from a LOT of people including: Bill Clinton, Ian Paisley Jr, David Cameron, Alastair Campbell, Tony Blair (just skimming BBC News). Huge numbers of mourners our on the streets of Derry right now as we speak - he's a very popular man amongst parts of that community. Also obviously a lot of people understandably feel very differently about his contributions and are making their opinions known. It's a divisive issue.

Given that Shane Duffy is well known to come from a nationalist background in Derry, why on earth would anyone be surprised that he would be from the side of the debate that look favourably on MM? I know a lot of Albion fans would strongly disagree with his politics but he doesn't owe us all some sort of political allegiance or neutrality - he owes us 100% effort on the pitch and I don't think anyone could question he gives that. If you genuinely can't stomach someone playing for the Albion and tweeting what he did today (which doesn't particularly stand out amongst a lot of mainstream commentators), then I think you're walking down a path towards saying that players of certain backgrounds and political persuasions aren't welcome.

Difficult issue, that's just my take.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

yes and so would my father who did not believe in northern Ireland.. and he had to put up with what not would be hate crime..i.e thick paddy, etc. Imagine if France decided Brighton was part of France we would be piss*d off. Northern Ireland is part of Ireland not a different country in My opinion.. but the IRA and McGuinness a again in my opinion C**ts

It was down to a democratic vote. The majority of Irish counties (32) voted for independence from Britain, but the vast majority of people in the six counties of Northern Ireland voted to stay with Britain. That's why the split happened in 1921. Borders don't necessarily follow geographical lines.

The troubles started because the minority 'Catholics' felt that job opportunities, housing, and representation in councils, towns were unfairly unbalanced.There was a lot of wrong on both sides. A civil rights movement started in the 60s because of the sectarianism. One man, one vote was their mantra.

 

[portlock seagull]

FIFA have been doing it for years!

Oh I think we would be able to define Englishness if we tried. I'm also sure that many Germans, French, Spanish and Italians would say that there identities are being eroded as well. They are not. They may be changing, but then again all identities change as time and events shape them.

Like you, I like celebrating my Englishness, just as I'm fully supportive of the Irish, Scots, French, Welsh etc etc celebrating theirs. It's important. I think Notting Hill Carnival for example is a very English thing - celebrating a culture that has been brought to our capital city and has enriched it over time. I think Pride is very English - that gradual acceptance over many years that men and women should be able to live their lives the way they want as long as they are not harming anyone else.

We could write lists of what's 'English' and be very proud. Equally, so could other nations.

Our identities are carved into us by events. Some peaceful and slow burning; some sudden and violent. Shane Duffy grew up in a community where that violence was all too prevalent. McGuinness may well have been a terrorist, and that will always be unforgivable, but he fought for his community and then he changed. Mandela famously support the reconciliation of those that had persecuted him so that South Africa might stand a chance. We all need to take that character forward in my humble view.

It's interesting to quote N. Hill. We do seem to celebrate via other cultures. That's partly why I aked what it is to be English IF you don't have another culture within immediate ancestry. Everyone I know and hold dear that has eg Scottish, Indian, Polish etc parents or grandparents or great grandparents STRONGLY identifies with those blood lines. Much as the Americans do with Italian, Irish etc (you never hear about American-English interestingly). So what does it mean to be English these days if your can't draw on that background? I think this group is a bit, well, in crisis in terms of a unifying set of traits in the modern sense. As others have said far more eloquently!

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Lots of relatively positive comments about MM today from a LOT of people including: Bill Clinton, Ian Paisley Jr, David Cameron, Alastair Campbell, Tony Blair (just skimming BBC News). Huge numbers of mourners our on the streets of Derry right now as we speak - he's a very popular man amongst parts of that community. Also obviously a lot of people understandably feel very differently about his contributions and are making their opinions known. It's a divisive issue.

Given that Shane Duffy is well known to come from a nationalist background in Derry, why on earth would anyone be surprised that he would be from the side of the debate that look favourably on MM? I know a lot of Albion fans would strongly disagree with his politics but he doesn't owe us all some sort of political allegiance or neutrality - he owes us 100% effort on the pitch and I don't think anyone could question he gives that. If you genuinely can't stomach someone playing for the Albion and tweeting what he did today (which doesn't particularly stand out amongst a lot of mainstream commentators), then I think you're walking down a path towards saying that players of certain backgrounds and political persuasions aren't welcome.

Difficult issue, that's just my take.

Well said. Nothing particularly extreme from Duffy and this will/should be all forgotten very quickly.

 

[portlock seagull]

Why?

sorry, that question was aimed at Neville (i.e. He assumes I've never travelled or lived abroad...which I have)

 

[AmexRuislip]

sorry, that question was aimed at Neville (i.e. He assumes I've never travelled or lived abroad...which I have)

Point I was making is that FIFA, in all its glory were always politically driven, especially with $$$

 

[jakarta]

Lots of relatively positive comments about MM today from a LOT of people including: Bill Clinton, Ian Paisley Jr, David Cameron, Alastair Campbell, Tony Blair (just skimming BBC News)

The last thing I would want is positive comments from that bunch of CJTCs.

He was a murderer and quite happy to keep on murdering until it became obvious it wasn't going to succeed.

 

[darkwolf666]

In a democracy he is entitled to express a view. If it's okay for Norman Tebbitt, Tim Parry, Piers Morgan et al to give their views, why not Shane Duffy?

And he is something that most commentators on this subject aren't - Irish!

 

[Shorehamkid]

I think he should have been a little bit more mindful of the fact he plays football for a team called Brighton & Hove Albion which, incase it escaped his attention, is the same city (town as it was then) that his hero decided to bomb. I think it's an idiotic tweet, but then thats my opinion, just like having a terrorist for a hero is his.

 

[darkwolf666]

The last thing I would want is positive comments from that bunch of CJTCs.

He was a murderer and quite happy to keep on murdering until it became obvious it wasn't going to succeed.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter - ask Nelson Mandela and the MK.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

How patronising.

Certainly not intended. I am simply sharing my experience. If that offends I apologize and will not
comment further.

 

[daveinprague]

I think he should have been a little bit more mindful of the fact he plays football for a team called Brighton & Hove Albion which, incase it escaped his attention, is the same city (town as it was then) that his hero decided to bomb. I think it's an idiotic tweet, but then thats my opinion, just like having a terrorist for a hero is his.

Was he praising his role as a terrorist, or as he was two years old when the peace process started, as somebody who helped bring peace? Like you say, you have an opinion, so does he, but are you really you sure he is hero worshipping a terrorist or somebody involved in the peace process?

 

[jakarta]

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter - ask Nelson Mandela and the MK.

The IRA Murdered Children for example Warrington 1993:

Three-year-old Johnathan Ball died at the scene. He had been in town with his babysitter, shopping for a Mother's Day card. The second victim, 12-year-old Tim Parry, was gravely wounded. He died on 25 March 1993 when doctors switched his life support machine off, having asked permission to do so from his family, after tests had found minimal brain activity. Fifty-four other people were injured, four of them seriously

Freedom Fighters? Do me a favour...

 

[Shorehamkid]

Was he praising his role as a terrorist, or as he was two years old when the peace process started, as somebody who helped bring peace? Like you say, you have an opinion, so does he, but areally you sure he is hero worshipping a terrorist or somebody involved in the peace process?

Irrelevant to my mind, keep your counsel and be aware of the atrocities that MM was responsible for in the city he now lives in and represents.

 

[Eeyore]

What is it in you view, to be English these days? nb: not British, that's on its way out if not in the Skip already! Wales, Ireland and Scotland all have strong, confident sense of identity but ours appears less easy to define other than perhaps to be English is to embrace all other cultures almost to the expense of our own. So what is it to be English these days, if you don't have another nationality within the immediate lineage to celebrate?

This was quite a thought provoking piece yesterday if interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...england-avoid-a-meltdown-of-national-identity

It very much depends on how you see history. But as you asked me that question personally I’ll give you my perspective with a nod to the first sentence and a flag against your suggestion to extract Britain from the equation.

History is handed down to us by the ruling classes, or was when I grew up in the ashes of Empire. We were taught of foreign conquest, of kings and queens, of servitude and loyalty. To what ? I must have thought.

Frederick Engels once suggested that the English don’t do revolutions as we are in a permanent state of quiet revolution. And, for me, this defines our character as a nation.

I identify with our rich social history, not the Wellington and Nelson rhetoric. The struggle of the working classes, the social revolution that brought about the living standards we enjoy today. The makers, the levellers, the social protagonists who fought for fairness and equality. Those who devoted their lives to the betterment of future generations. Ultimately those who fought tyranny in the ‘good fight’ and paved the way for the levelling of the spoils of labour.

For me, that is my country in which I am proud. I love Its, sometimes grudging, acceptance of the alien. The values of respect -even if it does feel uncomfortable with our natural reserve. The mundane safety that our social systems afford us. Our music, or literature, our sporting institutions, rain in July, tea at cricket, the BBC, the visual legacy of those who paved the way for us to have the chance to enjoy such things.

What is there not to identify with ? This is England. But the reality is, in many ways, it is also Scotland too. To me, all that separates us is May Day poles and deep fried mars bars. When I grew up I didn't differentiate between Scottish and English writers, as your article says. So it’s hard to delineate between English and British. I’d say Scots are actually more conservative in nature but have a richer appreciation for the roots of their social and economic history (thus a greater identity as a nation- for that is where it starts). This may be why they will be better off alone.

This brings me to my earlier post. Our identity is not defined by centuries old wars that bring a temporary and long lost superiority. For when that star falls so the identity has no guide. Thus we see our ‘flag’ hijacked by those who long for the grand past that the history books inflicted upon us in a measure too large. But when you know your roots, you know the struggles of those who facilitated today’s comfort, you know the good custom, and you know about simple values that come from within and are not inflicted by government, nationalists, or religious institution, then you cannot fail to love being English. It is our own ancestors who wrote history, yours and my ancestors, whether it was dying to stop Hitler, dying making a rail viaduct in wage slavery, or beating the Aussies at cricket. They make me proud to be English.

Wars were never won on the playing fields of Eton, they were won in the cotton mills of Manchester.

People have called me a yoghurt knitting, lefty appeaser. Perhaps I am. But I’m a proud Englishman- because my country puts up with me and doesn’t try to stop me.

 

[bhanutz]

Irrelevant to my mind, keep your counsel and be aware of the atrocities that MM was responsible for in the city he now lives in and represents.

Freedom of Speech is irrelevant to you too.. Its ok for you to give your opinion but not him?