Downsides to Poyet? - Sunderland fan here

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Poyet would still of had a massive say on who deserves a contract.

Yes i'm sure Poyet said lets sell Bennett. The manager will say who he wants but probably not involved with the minutiae of negotiating contracts that'll be down to the agents and the finance people at the club

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Poyet would still of had a massive say on who deserves a contract.

That wasn't your accusation. I quote 'He sold a very consistent Elliott Bennett for peanuts'

As I understand it, any player who was approached by a Prem club could be sold. He did well to persuade Benno to stay to the end of the season, and help us get promoted. Benno still gave 100% in that time.

 

[The Truth]

Yes i'm sure Poyet said lets sell Bennett.

I doubt these were he's words. More that Poyet thought he could bring in better than what was already there. The Poyet project replaced Bennett with Buckley and Murray with CMS, neither are better. Considering Southampton came 2nd to us that season but kept there main players and then went on to win the Championship shows the benefit of holding a team together. The zamora years were pretty much the same team through 3 different divisions and again very successful.
You mentioned earlier Ferguson being a great manager because he could get the best out of his players. Also recognise how well he kept his teams together. Ferguson didn't like dismantling his team. He stuck with players who were there before him, he brought through the youngsters and he always replaced his players with even better ones (Beckham then Ronaldo). Poyet on the other hand didn't give the youth a chance in hell, he didn't replace good players with better ones and he certainly didn't keep hold of a title winning team. No comparison.

 

[The Truth]

That wasn't your accusation. I quote 'He sold a very consistent Elliott Bennett for peanuts'

As I understand it, any player who was approached by a Prem club could be sold. He did well to persuade Benno to stay to the end of the season, and help us get promoted. Benno still gave 100% in that time.

Some managers persuade their players to stay and get to the Prem with their current club. Southampton and Norwich had managers who seemed to do this pretty well.
It seemed that Poyet like promoting the Prem as a direction with or without the club. It probably rubbed off on his team.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I doubt these were he's words. More that Poyet thought he could bring in better than what was already there. The Poyet project replaced Bennett with Buckley and Murray with CMS, neither are better. Considering Southampton came 2nd to us that season but kept there main players and then went on to win the Championship shows the benefit of holding a team together. The zamora years were pretty much the same team through 3 different divisions and again very successful.
You mentioned earlier Ferguson being a great manager because he could get the best out of his players. Also recognise how well he kept his teams together. Ferguson didn't like dismantling his team. He stuck with players who were there before him, he brought through the youngsters and he always replaced his players with even better ones (Beckham then Ronaldo). Poyet on the other hand didn't give the youth a chance in hell, he didn't replace good players with better ones and he certainly didn't keep hold of a title winning team. No comparison.

Poyet wanted to keep Benno (see my post above about Prem clubs) As for not giving youth a chance, he gave JFC, Goodwin, Barker and others their chances.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Do you blame Oscar for not persuading Bridcutt to stay?

Is there anything else we can blame Poyet for? World poverty, the Somerset floods, the increase in cancers, the Tube strike?

 

[The Wizard]

What about player discipline on the pitch? Sunderland have had 5(?) red cards I think since he joined & we were accused by most other fans of being a cynical/dirty side. And I don't think he's the best tactically as a manager when it really matters, he got our tactics dreadfully wrong in the play offs.

Aside from that I think he's a great manager to be honest, I think he'll end up managing a top club like his ego deserves haha

 

[B.W.]

Poyet always put the players first, rather than the club, but he isn't responsible for world poverty.

 

[The Truth]

Do you blame Oscar for not persuading Bridcutt to stay?

No I blame Poyet for persuading him to leave.

What's your beef with Oscar?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No I blame Poyet for persuading him to leave.

What's your beef with Oscar?

I haven't got a beef with Oscar. The situations are similar.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

I doubt these were he's words. More that Poyet thought he could bring in better than what was already there. The Poyet project replaced Bennett with Buckley and Murray with CMS, neither are better. Considering Southampton came 2nd to us that season but kept there main players and then went on to win the Championship shows the benefit of holding a team together. The zamora years were pretty much the same team through 3 different divisions and again very successful.
You mentioned earlier Ferguson being a great manager because he could get the best out of his players. Also recognise how well he kept his teams together. Ferguson didn't like dismantling his team. He stuck with players who were there before him, he brought through the youngsters and he always replaced his players with even better ones (Beckham then Ronaldo). Poyet on the other hand didn't give the youth a chance in hell, he didn't replace good players with better ones and he certainly didn't keep hold of a title winning team. No comparison.

Southampton had a lot bigger budget and were no doubt paying higher wages which makes a big difference plus you don't know how long the contracts they gave to their players were, perhaps we couldn't match the contract length of southampton and so you are more over a barrel when bigger clubs come sniffing so you don't lose them for nothing. How do you expect a championship manager to replace a premiership quality player with better? There was no way we could afford to keep Bennett as a club but obviously thats Poyet's fault

Ferguson had a big advantage in that they were winning everything so there was no reason for players to leave and they will pay top dollar for wages too so keeping that team together wasn't exactly difficult.

 

[The Truth]

Ferguson had a big advantage in that they were winning everything so there was no reason for players to leave and they will pay top dollar for wages too so keeping that team together wasn't exactly difficult.

Man United were not winning everything when Alex ferguson came in, far from it.

 

[Icy Gull]

Do you blame Oscar for not persuading Bridcutt to stay? ?

I sincerely doubt that Oscar wasted too much time on that one, he has a squad of players who I presume were gagging to play, so why bother with a player who had his head turned and wanted out? He may have been player of the season for two years but that becomes irrelevant if he has lost the desire to play.

Maybe I've missed the point you were making as I just started reading this page when I logged in.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I sincerely doubt that Oscar wasted too much time on that one, he has a squad of players who I presume were gagging to play, so why bother with a player who had his head turned and wanted out? He may have been player of the season for two years but that becomes irrelevant if he has lost the desire to play.

Maybe I've missed the point you were making as I just started reading this page when I logged in.

Benno also had his head turned especially after seeing Crofts go to Norwich. He put in a tranfer request which was rejected. Apart from the Watford cup game, he still played and gave of his best.

 

[The Truth]

Benno also had his head turned especially after seeing Crofts go to Norwich. He put in a tranfer request which was rejected. Apart from the Watford cup game, he still played and gave of his best.

Didn't Bennett tweet something about how Poyet was a man of his word in promising Bennett and Noone Prem football?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Didn't Bennett tweet something about how Poyet was a man of his word in promising Bennett and Noone Prem football?

Bloom & Poyet said that any player who was wanted by a club above us could be sold. Crofts went into the Championship from League 1 in 2010 and the other two went in 2011 & 2012 respectively.
If you refuse players a chance to play in a higher division, you end up with a resentful player. It was just a case of the right price which is not down to the manager who it is.

 

[fat old seagull]

I doubt these were he's words. More that Poyet thought he could bring in better than what was already there. The Poyet project replaced Bennett with Buckley and Murray with CMS, neither are better. Considering Southampton came 2nd to us that season but kept there main players and then went on to win the Championship shows the benefit of holding a team together. The zamora years were pretty much the same team through 3 different divisions and again very successful.
You mentioned earlier Ferguson being a great manager because he could get the best out of his players. Also recognise how well he kept his teams together. Ferguson didn't like dismantling his team. He stuck with players who were there before him, he brought through the youngsters and he always replaced his players with even better ones (Beckham then Ronaldo). Poyet on the other hand didn't give the youth a chance in hell, he didn't replace good players with better ones and he certainly didn't keep hold of a title winning team. No comparison.

IMO this is pretty much spot on. In fact casting my mind back through English footy history building your team and keeping it together is the most important issue. Look back to when Arsenal, Leeds and Liverpool took turns to be top dog for a few years. Every game week after week same players, same positions. Only when single players moved on or retired were they replaced and not very often. Only Graham Souness kicked the buck when he took over at Liverpool by selling half the team and buying his favs. That was the downfall of them.... and him.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

IMO this is pretty much spot on. In fact casting my mind back through English footy history building your team and keeping it together is the most important issue. Look back to when Arsenal, Leeds and Liverpool took turns to be top dog for a few years. Every game week after week same players, same positions. Only when single players moved on or retired were they replaced and not very often. Only Graham Souness kicked the buck when he took over at Liverpool by selling half the team and buying his favs. That was the downfall of them.... and him.

So taking a team from the relegation zone in League 1 to 4th in the Championship whilst selling 3 or 4 players was a downfall? Ok.
Hopefully then Oscar selling Bridcutt, Barnes & El-Abd will mean massive success this season by your logic.

 

[smiler]

Yep I should have said didn't retain him, my mistake. Still a massive lack of judgment considering his replacement, CMS, cost £2.5m, which is massive for a league one player.

Totally agree I believe it was Poyet's decision not to keep him despite others in the club very keen to keep Murray

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Man United were not winning everything when Alex ferguson came in, far from it.

And he didn't keep a consistent team then either. You were talking about Beckham being replaced with ronaldo etc which i believe was in the middle of the glory years