[Politics] Donald Rumsfeld Dead

[father_and_son]

Gone to the great Unknown Unknown in the sky.

Never liked him as a politician but his 'unknown' quote is pure genius and amazing insight from a politician (who normal seem to think they know it all).

 

[McTavish]

It was logical, until the error was made. Despite the error, it was an interesting formulation.

What was the error?

 

[A1X]

Only the good die young.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The arson story is an urban myth

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4719364.stm

That's desputed. But there are others that make the same point

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society

 

[zefarelly]

Has there only ever been one pleasant Donald?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Glad someone gets it. He may have been a thundercunt (when I say 'may have'...) but his 'unknowns' statement is entirely logical. It isn't remarkable, but the sight of people piling in to mock it (because they didn't understand it) was very disappointing*. It almost completely overshadowed the noble objective of showing him up to be the **** that he was.

*When I say disappointing, it was on a par with the gleeful arson of the paediatrician's house in Portsmouth . . . .

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones = Events, dear boy, events.

Simple.

 

[Doc Lynam]

Life's all about choices!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7F08km8GZs

 

[Machiavelli]

What was the error?

Unknown unknown. He meant to say unknown known.

 

[Blue3]

Donald Rumsfeld was the architect of the first gulf war and the invasion of Afghanistan which directly led to the Islamic state and 9/11

In the wake of the attacks of 9/11, President George W. Bush called for a global "War on Terror," launching an ongoing effort to thwart terrorists before they act.

9/11 resulted in 2,996 deaths apart from the 14 terrorists all were innocent civilians

The subsequent wars have led to at least 800,000 deaths with 310,000 of that number being innocent civilians killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher.

These post-911 wars have forcibly displaced at least 37 million people in and from Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, and Syria leading to unknown numbers of deaths trying to reach sanctuary.

We cannot put all the evils of the world upon Mr Rumsfeld but he was it’s first architect after 911

We all hope that individuals we put into a position of power will make the right decisions based upon facts provided by advisors whose first thoughts are to limit the loss of life and to not put the value of oil above all else.

 

[McTavish]

Donald Rumsfeld was the architect of the first gulf war and the invasion of Afghanistan which directly led to the Islamic state and 9/11

In the wake of the attacks of 9/11, President George W. Bush called for a global "War on Terror," launching an ongoing effort to thwart terrorists before they act.

9/11 resulted in 2,996 deaths apart from the 14 terrorists all were innocent civilians

The subsequent wars have led to at least 800,000 deaths with 310,000 of that number being innocent civilians killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher.

These post-911 wars have forcibly displaced at least 37 million people in and from Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, and Syria leading to unknown numbers of deaths trying to reach sanctuary.

We cannot put all the evils of the world upon Mr Rumsfeld but he was it’s first architect after 911

We all hope that individuals we put into a position of power will make the right decisions based upon facts provided by advisors whose first thoughts are to limit the loss of life and to not put the value of oil above all else.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Rumsfeld was the architect of the first Gulf War - I think Saddam Hussein might be more directly in the frame for that one.

 

[Machiavelli]

The most important document written by the neocons was the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century. It was published six months after Clinton's second victory. It's mercifully brief, features simplistic binaries, and lays out what they were going to do once back in power. There was a certain event that provided the perfect opportunity to put these into practice. Here they are:

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The most important document written by the neocons was the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century. It was published six months after Clinton's second victory. It's mercifully brief, features simplistic binaries, and lays out what they were going to do once back in power. There was a certain event that provided the perfect opportunity to put these into practice. Here they are:

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz

Brilliant post. Many thanks.

I highlight the bravura (aka bolloks) in their statement

There is very little. Fancy that. I can only be honest.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Donald Rumsfeld was the architect of the first gulf war and the invasion of Afghanistan which directly led to the Islamic state and 9/11

In the wake of the attacks of 9/11, President George W. Bush called for a global "War on Terror," launching an ongoing effort to thwart terrorists before they act.

9/11 resulted in 2,996 deaths apart from the 14 terrorists all were innocent civilians

The subsequent wars have led to at least 800,000 deaths with 310,000 of that number being innocent civilians killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher.

These post-911 wars have forcibly displaced at least 37 million people in and from Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, and Syria leading to unknown numbers of deaths trying to reach sanctuary.

We cannot put all the evils of the world upon Mr Rumsfeld but he was it’s first architect after 911

We all hope that individuals we put into a position of power will make the right decisions based upon facts provided by advisors whose first thoughts are to limit the loss of life and to not put the value of oil above all else.

America never having heard about Islamic states and their anti Jew mania was a bit of a ****ing massive failure of intelligence, in my not very humble opinion. Yes, they were aware of Palestinians and the need to never criticise Israel (another mistake, albeit 10% as dangerous of the other; Israel is a democratic state FFS) bu the wider miopia (if that isn't a paradox) is breathtaking. Even the TV series Spooks knew more about shit than the yanks back then

 

[Machiavelli]

Brilliant post. Many thanks.

I highlight the bravura (aka bolloks) in their statement

There is very little. Fancy that. I can only be honest.

It's worth noting two things:
1, the US army withdrew from their last remaining Afghani air base today (some 20 years after arriving). The invasion of Afghanistan received a UNSC resolution, so was legal. The illegal invasion of Iraq spread their load too far, and they took their eye off Afghanistan, with disastrous consequences for the Afghani people then, as Biden's move appears to leave them with now.
2, Within the Republicans back then, and still now, there was a battle between the interventionist neocons and the isolationists PaleoCons (pay attention [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION]). If you want to get a better picture, then check out Globalists by Quinn Slobodian.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Donald Rumsfeld was the architect of the first gulf war and the invasion of Afghanistan which directly led to the Islamic state and 9/11

In the wake of the attacks of 9/11, President George W. Bush called for a global "War on Terror," launching an ongoing effort to thwart terrorists before they act.

9/11 resulted in 2,996 deaths apart from the 14 terrorists all were innocent civilians

The subsequent wars have led to at least 800,000 deaths with 310,000 of that number being innocent civilians killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher.

These post-911 wars have forcibly displaced at least 37 million people in and from Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, and Syria leading to unknown numbers of deaths trying to reach sanctuary.

We cannot put all the evils of the world upon Mr Rumsfeld but he was it’s first architect after 911

We all hope that individuals we put into a position of power will make the right decisions based upon facts provided by advisors whose first thoughts are to limit the loss of life and to not put the value of oil above all else.

I would give credit to Saddam Hussein for the first gulf war , America and more especially Britain were not going to let Kuwait (its oil) be absorbed into Iraq.

Also America invaded Afghanistan because of 9/11 as Afghanistan had allowed Al Qaeda to set up bases there.

The mistake was to attack Iraq for Gulf War 2 as the distraction let the Taliban get a foothold back in Afghanistan, it removed a buffer against Iran and gave the Shias control in Iraq which then led to the Sunni counter response in ISIS and the opening up of the Shia/Hezzbollah corridor through Syria up to Israel's borders which threatens huge destabilisation.

 

[Wardy's twin]

It's worth noting two things:
1, the US army withdrew from their last remaining Afghani air base today (some 20 years after arriving). The invasion of Afghanistan received a UNSC resolution, so was legal. The illegal invasion of Iraq spread their load too far, and they took their eye off Afghanistan, with disastrous consequences for the Afghani people then, as Biden's move appears to leave them with now.
2, Within the Republicans back then, and still now, there was a battle between the interventionist neocons and the isolationists PaleoCons (pay attention [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION]). If you want to get a better picture, then check out Globalists by Quinn Slobodian.

I think people forget that many Americans and that includes their Presidents really did not want to get involved outside its own borders

 

[Blue3]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Rumsfeld was the architect of the first Gulf War - I think Saddam Hussein might be more directly in the frame for that one.

Saddam was certainly a nasty bit of work but was he a real threat to us and the other western powers or was it that dossier detailing wepons of mass distruction which Rumsfeld held up as the facts

 

[Blue3]

I would give credit to Saddam Hussein for the first gulf war , America and more especially Britain were not going to let Kuwait (its oil) be absorbed into Iraq.

Also America invaded Afghanistan because of 9/11 as Afghanistan had allowed Al Qaeda to set up bases there.

The mistake was to attack Iraq for Gulf War 2 as the distraction let the Taliban get a foothold back in Afghanistan, it removed a buffer against Iran and gave the Shias control in Iraq which then led to the Sunni counter response in ISIS and the opening up of the Shia/Hezzbollah corridor through Syria up to Israel's borders which threatens huge destabilisation.

Very fair points

 

[Blue3]

Donald Rumsfeld was the architect of the first gulf war and the invasion of Afghanistan which directly led to the Islamic state and 9/11

In the wake of the attacks of 9/11, President George W. Bush called for a global "War on Terror," launching an ongoing effort to thwart terrorists before they act.

9/11 resulted in 2,996 deaths apart from the 14 terrorists all were innocent civilians

The subsequent wars have led to at least 800,000 deaths with 310,000 of that number being innocent civilians killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher.

These post-911 wars have forcibly displaced at least 37 million people in and from Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, and Syria leading to unknown numbers of deaths trying to reach sanctuary.

We cannot put all the evils of the world upon Mr Rumsfeld but he was it’s first architect after 911

We all hope that individuals we put into a position of power will make the right decisions based upon facts provided by advisors whose first thoughts are to limit the loss of life and to not put the value of oil above all else.

I think having read others posts and several posts quoting my post above, it is only right to say my memories of the events leading to the first gulf war are a bit confused however the longer term effects I stand by, only to we see another 44 pepole drowned off the coast of Lybia seeking sanctuary

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Saddam was certainly a nasty bit of work but was he a real threat to us and the other western powers or was it that dossier detailing wepons of mass distruction which Rumsfeld held up as the facts

Aren't you mixing up your Gulf wars ? The first one was a response to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.