Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Is this a thread about race rather than football HWT ?
[Football] Did Ian Wright get the number of England starts his data suggests was warranted?
- Thread starter Harry Wilson's tackle
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Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
Never played in a European Championship or World Cup
Reinelt12
Sick Note
I wanted to say Fowler, because as far as I am concerned he is the best finisher I have ever seen... but he really didn’t play much for England at all, even less than Wright, which was a travesty.
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
He never played that well for England. But his peak was during 97, but missed out on World Cup 98 because of injury and that was that.
Either you were really strong in the air like Shearer, Ferdinand and Sheringham or your chances of playing/chances of success as a striker in a 90s pre-Owen England team were limited which explains the lack of success for players like Wright, Fowler and Cole.
- Thread starter
- #27
I looked up Fowler's stats but haven't added him to my list because he wasn't in the frame between 91 and 97. I was interested in comparing Wright with the direct competition in a 'time matched' study. I included Gazza because he was as much a goalscorer as fat Frank and Gerrard, even if a midfielder, and would certainly be considered someone you would expect goals from.
I have added Beardsley and Ferdinand to the list. Wright remains at the bottom of the list. Ferdinand is second bottom.
I have seen various explanations why Wright didn't get as many England starts or caps that his club goals would predict (and he was at Arsenal during almost all if not actually all this period, scoring goals for Arsenal, in record numbers till Henry came on he scene). I have seen on this thread comments about his attitude (not caring) that I find a little peculiar. The man is passionate and was a passionate England player. Was he a troublemaker? I have seen no evidence of that. I do seem to recall at the time rumbings of comment that he wasn't 'right' for England although I never really understood what people meant.
Remember I am comparing his England selection at exactly the time he was scoring all those club goals. So him being injured (another explanation offered) is not plausible. Also I did not include the 1990 world cup window - the data start from 1991.
I have a feeling there must be some other reason why he was overlooked. Perhaps it is dead men's shoes - once Shearer had established that England number nine slot, as long as he kept banging in goals, not having a barren streak or anything, his place was secure. I can understand that. Hang on - 1995, Shearer played 8 times for England and score no goals. In 1995 Ian Wright also scored no goals for England. But he didn't play a single game.
No, I'm stumped.
Edit: He's a cheerful bloke who never complains so I guess it was simply bad luck. It happens.
Reinelt12
Sick Note
I remember being pissed off that Shearer was still being picked by England when he had a barren spell of nearly 2 years without scoring... and I thought that then it was Fowler who should have got his shot.
However, if you are only going to use goalscoring as a metric, then if you go by the years following your selection, Heskey should not have played as many times as he did... yet every single striker that played alongside him said he was the best striker to play with (because his play meant they scored many more goals) - I think that’s why Teddy played so many times, he brought the best out of Shearer... culminating in THAT win over Holland in 96 which is the best I have ever seen England play.
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
If he's got Carlton Palmer, Andy Sinton et al in midfield behind him, it's hardly a surprise Ian Wright didn't recreate his club form under Taylor.
He did alright under Hoddle with a better supporting cast and would have gone to France '98 if not for injury.
He did alright under Hoddle with a better supporting cast and would have gone to France '98 if not for injury.
- Thread starter
- #30
Yes, that's true. Heskey was a brilliant side-kick and got the caps he deserved. It seems that Wright was simply unfortunate.
Someone mentioned Le Tissier. I agree that his omission was also very odd. Was he 29 when he got his first cap? England were fond of picking worthy dullards then.
I feel very positive that today, we may or may not like Southgate, but he does pick players showing form (apart from his disgraceful disregard for Lewis Dunk of course
)In each (except 96/97) of his PL seasons there was at least five English players who scored more goals than him:
92/93
Sheringham
Ferdinand
Holdsworth
Shearer
White
And then Wright, tied with Deane, Le Tissier, Robins and Armstrong
93/94
Cole (34 goals, yet didnt play for England until 1995)
Shearer
Le Tissier
Sutton
Wright
94/95
Shearer
Fowler
Ferdinand
Collymore
Cole
Le Tissier
Sheringham / Wright
95/96
Shearer
Fowler
Ferdinand
Armstrong / Wright
96/97
Shearer
Wright
97/98
Dublin
Owen
Sutton
Cole
Huckerby
... and others (Wright only scored 10 that season)
So arguably there is quite a lot of overlooked England strikers through the years. Wright with the exception of 96/97 never had a PL season where he outperformed most of his competitors in terms of goal scoring.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
Also Beardsley, more often the provider than the finisher.
- Thread starter
- #33
Maybe that's it. Despite scoring almost the same number of goals as Shearer in that period, there were always one-season wonders like Huckerby, Dublin, Armstrong, Collymore, Holdsworth and White who outsprinted him, making him easy to overlook.
Except that at the time the England set up did't generally go for one season wonders. Which is why the chaps above (plus Fowler) didn't get much of a look in.
I'm thinking that Shearer was so dominant, just that better a bet than Wright (and Shearer would be a better bet than Wright for me too) that Wright ended up the bridesmaid. In view of that his rate of England selection may well be a decent return.
Interesting to dredge the data though, and see how much the numbers do differ among the goalscoreres. I may do a similar exercise for, say, 2011-2017 later.
Slightly off the exact topic, but still on the topic of Ian Wright, his Desert Island Discs is brilliant. He has in abundance what seems to be missing from a lot of the entitled footballers of the modern age.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000fdxw
If you want to cut straight to the bit that will make all but the most cold-hearted well up...
Tissues at the ready!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000fdxw
If you want to cut straight to the bit that will make all but the most cold-hearted well up...
Tissues at the ready!!
Baldseagull
Well-known member
Ferdinand didn't take penalty kicks, and would have been top scorer or second in some of those seasons if it excluded penalties. Dion Dublin had a total of 18 goals in 97/98, and 6 of those were penalties.
1066familyman
Radio User
- Jan 15, 2008
- 15,233
It can't be about race, because John Barnes built a lengthy England career off of one spectacular goal against Brazil. Great club player, woeful for England.
1066familyman
Radio User
- Jan 15, 2008
- 15,233
Yes, that's true. Heskey was a brilliant side-kick and got the caps he deserved. It seems that Wright was simply unfortunate.
Someone mentioned Le Tissier. I agree that his omission was also very odd. Was he 29 when he got his first cap? England were fond of picking worthy dullards then.
I feel very positive that today, we may or may not like Southgate, but he does pick players showing form (apart from his disgraceful disregard for Lewis Dunk of course
It seemed to me that Le Tissier choosing to stay at Southampton all his career did for his England chances. Had he moved to a 'big club', I'm sure he would have been given more caps.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
Hoddle as England manager considered him a talented but lazy player, which I found quite ironic, as it was something Hodddle was often accused of as a player.
- Thread starter
- #39
Like Mick Channon. Oh, hang on....
Was not good enough for the Albion not good enough for England, seriously though he was a fine striker but had some stiff competition in Shrearer, Fowler and Cole plus when he was given the chance to play for England I think Ian Wright along with John Barnes failed to make the most of the opportunities, this may have been the way England played