Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Football] Dementia in football: Ex-players three and a half times more likely to die of condition



crodonilson

He/Him
Jan 17, 2005
14,062
Lyme Regis
The obvious and easiest solution is to ban heading. Treat heading as handball, any header is a foul and a free kick to the opposition or a penalty if a header in the penalty area.
 






Worried Man Blues

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2009
7,286
Swansea
Rugby may have made tackling round the head illegal, not sure putting your head around the knee and boot area is too sensible, but then it's only rugby
 


Seasidesage

New member
May 19, 2009
4,467
Brighton, United Kingdom
The ball Jeff Astle et al were heading was a very different beast to the one used now. I suspect that the risk now would be from collisions rather than excessive heading. Heading the balloon used today versus boxing or MMA? I think we are a long way from a ban, professionally at least. Schools/youth football may be a different thing...

Virtually all human activity carries a degree of risk and the health benefits of sport far outweigh the dangers.
 


Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,226
On NSC for over two decades...
better ball technology in football, (combined with heading bans for very young kids in schools and clubs, or better give them balls which are weighted proportionately to a child's weight and don't bounce much),

I'm involved with youth football through my son's team. They use size 3 balls at U7, U8 and U9 level; size 4 at at U10, U11, U12, U13 and U14; and size 5 only comes in at U15 level and above.

At the very youngest levels it is very rare to see a child even attempt a header to be honest.
 




blue-shifted

Banned
Feb 20, 2004
7,645
a galaxy far far away
I'm involved with youth football through my son's team. They use size 3 balls at U7, U8 and U9 level; size 4 at at U10, U11, U12, U13 and U14; and size 5 only comes in at U15 level and above.

At the very youngest levels it is very rare to see a child even attempt a header to be honest.


But think about it in terms of proportions

An adult weights approx 12 stone
A 7 y/o weights 3 stone

So an adult will be about 4 times the weight

A size 5 ball weighs ……. ok well I don’t know, but it’s about … what … 20 to 30% more than a size 3

A size 3 ball for a youngster then is the equivalent of you or I trying to kick or head a medicine ball

This has two impacts

Firstly, and completely irrelevantly to this thread, skilful youngsters struggle to move a ball any distance at all and get completely outperformed by their less skilful but bigger counterparts.

Secondly, whenever they do head it, (and I don’t really agree that they don’t head, the kids try to copy their heroes) it’s doing proportionately more damage

That doesn’t even get into the difference between adults and youngsters in terms of skull thickness, rib cage or neck muscle development at different stages of their childhood.

The point I’m making is that I believe that youngsters should be playing with non bouncy futsal type things or lighter plastic balls until they get to secondary age. Which is exactly what my boy has got.
 


Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,226
On NSC for over two decades...
But think about it in terms of proportions

An adult weights approx 12 stone
A 7 y/o weights 3 stone

So an adult will be about 4 times the weight

A size 5 ball weighs ……. ok well I don’t know, but it’s about … what … 20 to 30% more than a size 3

A size 3 ball for a youngster then is the equivalent of you or I trying to kick or head a medicine ball

This has two impacts

Firstly, and completely irrelevantly to this thread, skilful youngsters struggle to move a ball any distance at all and get completely outperformed by their less skilful but bigger counterparts.

Secondly, whenever they do head it, (and I don’t really agree that they don’t head, the kids try to copy their heroes) it’s doing proportionately more damage

That doesn’t even get into the difference between adults and youngsters in terms of skull thickness, rib cage or neck muscle development at different stages of their childhood.

The point I’m making is that I believe that youngsters should be playing with non bouncy futsal type things or lighter plastic balls until they get to secondary age. Which is exactly what my boy has got.

I've been googling ball sizes and weights, and this site is the only one that I've found that has a reasonable tabulated summary of the relevant information - the size 5 information is consistent with Law 2.

https://www.theukrules.co.uk/rules/sport/football/fifa-soccer-ball-specifications.html

For those that work in imperial a size 3 ball is about 11 ounces, and even a size 5 weighs in at less than a pound.
 


GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,181
Gloucester
The obvious and easiest solution is to ban heading. Treat heading as handball, any header is a foul and a free kick to the opposition or a penalty if a header in the penalty area.

That's not a solution - it's the end of football!

Perhaps the amount - and force of heading can be reduced. Perhaps no heading allowed until the ball has bounced, except from a throw in, or in the penalty area but only when direct from a corner. Once the ball has bounced, much of the momentum and force is reduced; those headers you see, especially in the lower divisions and levels of football where a towering clearance is just headed straight back - thump! That must hurt!
 




Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,226
On NSC for over two decades...
My personal opinion is that more data is required - specifically that relating to players who have only been using the era of balls that don't absorb water and get heavier during matches, as that is more relevant to making an informed decision.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,683
The Fatherland
(Top) Footballers tend to live longer than non footballers because of their diet, fitness, medical monitoring, wealth, etc

Interesting. Where did you read this?
 


Dave the OAP

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
46,761
at home
Of course banning headers will be the logical next step, but what happens when a centre back hurls himself at a shot and the ball smacks him in the head?

It’s also issue with strikers heading the ball too
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,014
from the article:
Although footballers had higher risk of death from neurodegenerative disease, they were less likely to die of other common diseases, such as heart disease and some cancers, including lung cancer.
...
"Our data show that while former footballers had higher dementia rates, they had lower rates of death due to other major diseases.

seems we need to be very careful about attributing dementia to heading the ball and making decision based on that.
 


drew

Drew
NSC Patron
Oct 3, 2006
23,609
Burgess Hill
But think about it in terms of proportions

An adult weights approx 12 stone
A 7 y/o weights 3 stone

So an adult will be about 4 times the weight

A size 5 ball weighs ……. ok well I don’t know, but it’s about … what … 20 to 30% more than a size 3

A size 3 ball for a youngster then is the equivalent of you or I trying to kick or head a medicine ball

This has two impacts

Firstly, and completely irrelevantly to this thread, skilful youngsters struggle to move a ball any distance at all and get completely outperformed by their less skilful but bigger counterparts.

Secondly, whenever they do head it, (and I don’t really agree that they don’t head, the kids try to copy their heroes) it’s doing proportionately more damage

That doesn’t even get into the difference between adults and youngsters in terms of skull thickness, rib cage or neck muscle development at different stages of their childhood.

The point I’m making is that I believe that youngsters should be playing with non bouncy futsal type things or lighter plastic balls until they get to secondary age. Which is exactly what my boy has got.

Sorry, but a child heading a size 3 is in no way the equivalent of an adult heading a medicine ball, ludicrous comparison.
 








symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
Shearer did a program on this a year or two ago, and apart from the difference in the old stitched and laced, heavy when wet, football, the modern football proved inconclusive.

I seem to remember that he had a scan on his own brain and it was clear of any damage.

If there was a clear link, with the amount of professional footballers over the last 30 years it would provide enough samples from health records, for it to show.
 
Last edited:


timbha

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
10,506
Sussex
Interesting. Where did you read this?

Afraid I can’t be specific but it’s been on the radio and (I think) on TV news last night. I think it said that fewer top sportsmen, including footballers, die from heart disease and cancer, and relatively more die from Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s because on average these conditions kill you in later life.
 


blue-shifted

Banned
Feb 20, 2004
7,645
a galaxy far far away
It might help if we knew what weight medicine ball you are using in your example?

It’s all in the thread and fairly uncomplicated

So an adult weighs about 4 times as much as a 7 y/o (using a 7 y/o as an example as I have one and I know how much he weighs)

A adults ball is much less than 4 times heavy than the ball my son uses in his football class. In fact a size 3 is only about 20% lighter than a size 5

Adults weight to childs weight = 400% difference
Adults ball weight to childs ball weight = 20% difference

All approx figures of course ….

But the point I’m making, is that for a child to header a size 3 ball, which they do all the time, is the equivalent of an adult heading something much, much heavier than an adults football*.

Drew says this is a ridiculous comparison and I’m keen to see how he back this up.

The reason I’m saying this is that we are talking about taking sensible precautions as to how to lessen the risk of footballers getting dementia. I don’t agree that heading should be banned but I think there are ways of discouraging it in aspiring players during the crucial years of brain development

My idea is that children in football clubs and schools should use either lighter plastic balls or futsal type balls, which will hardly bounce up, until a certain age. (Brain scientists would better be able to say which age). This would mean all future Shane Duffys will have 10ish fewer years of 100’s of micro-traumas a day through heading. Hopefully this will reduce dementia in footballers in later life.

This would have the duel, but unrelated benefit of reducing the emphasis of bigger kids winning all the time, as they are the only ones who can kick it any distance, and force kids to work on their ball skills, rather than compete in the air for an endlessly bouncing size 3 leather ball.

*It’s actually even worse due to weaker neck muscles and lower skull thickness as I said in the earlier post.
 




Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,226
On NSC for over two decades...
It’s all in the thread and fairly uncomplicated

So an adult weighs about 4 times as much as a 7 y/o (using a 7 y/o as an example as I have one and I know how much he weighs)

A adults ball is much less than 4 times heavy than the ball my son uses in his football class. In fact a size 3 is only about 20% lighter than a size 5

Adults weight to childs weight = 400% difference
Adults ball weight to childs ball weight = 20% difference

All approx figures of course ….

But the point I’m making, is that for a child to header a size 3 ball, which they do all the time, is the equivalent of an adult heading something much, much heavier than an adults football*.

Drew says this is a ridiculous comparison and I’m keen to see how he back this up.

The reason I’m saying this is that we are talking about taking sensible precautions as to how to lessen the risk of footballers getting dementia. I don’t agree that heading should be banned but I think there are ways of discouraging it in aspiring players during the crucial years of brain development

My idea is that children in football clubs and schools should use either lighter plastic balls or futsal type balls, which will hardly bounce up, until a certain age. (Brain scientists would better be able to say which age). This would mean all future Shane Duffys will have 10ish fewer years of 100’s of micro-traumas a day through heading. Hopefully this will reduce dementia in footballers in later life.

This would have the duel, but unrelated benefit of reducing the emphasis of bigger kids winning all the time, as they are the only ones who can kick it any distance, and force kids to work on their ball skills, rather than compete in the air for an endlessly bouncing size 3 leather ball.

*It’s actually even worse due to weaker neck muscles and lower skull thickness as I said in the earlier post.

Okay, you mean a light medicine ball then - just under 3 pounds.

I'd dispute that kids in the U7/U8 bracket head the ball all the time though, either in training or matches. In my experience you'd see a header on average less than once per session, and no I don't have any evidence for that other than what I personally have observed.

I'm surprised you advocate using a Futsal ball though, given they are heavier than a size 5. Sure, they are less bouncy, but clearly more dangerous if one hits you in the head!

As I said in an earlier post, I think there needs to be more study on the effects of modern balls, rather than rushing to make changes based on what happened to some players who used the old leather balls.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,625
It’s all in the thread and fairly uncomplicated

So an adult weighs about 4 times as much as a 7 y/o (using a 7 y/o as an example as I have one and I know how much he weighs)

A adults ball is much less than 4 times heavy than the ball my son uses in his football class. In fact a size 3 is only about 20% lighter than a size 5

Adults weight to childs weight = 400% difference
Adults ball weight to childs ball weight = 20% difference

All approx figures of course ….

But the point I’m making, is that for a child to header a size 3 ball, which they do all the time, is the equivalent of an adult heading something much, much heavier than an adults football*.

Drew says this is a ridiculous comparison and I’m keen to see how he back this up.

The reason I’m saying this is that we are talking about taking sensible precautions as to how to lessen the risk of footballers getting dementia. I don’t agree that heading should be banned but I think there are ways of discouraging it in aspiring players during the crucial years of brain development

My idea is that children in football clubs and schools should use either lighter plastic balls or futsal type balls, which will hardly bounce up, until a certain age. (Brain scientists would better be able to say which age). This would mean all future Shane Duffys will have 10ish fewer years of 100’s of micro-traumas a day through heading. Hopefully this will reduce dementia in footballers in later life.

This would have the duel, but unrelated benefit of reducing the emphasis of bigger kids winning all the time, as they are the only ones who can kick it any distance, and force kids to work on their ball skills, rather than compete in the air for an endlessly bouncing size 3 leather ball.

*It’s actually even worse due to weaker neck muscles and lower skull thickness as I said in the earlier post.
Flawed logic. You have missed out the effect of the pace the ball is travelling at. An adult is heading a ball kicked towards him by an adult; a 7 year old is heading a ball kicked by a 7 year old. It's the momentum of the ball that they're heading that matters, not its weight.

One of the interesting things is that they said it was the same for goalkeepers - they too get higher rates of dementia, in the same proportions as outfield players. That's pretty stroing evidence that it's nothing to do with heading the ball - in the sixties, they headed it even less than they do now. So what is causing it?
 


Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports


Top
Link Here