Day 3 - Fri 4th Feb - SMOKE AND MIRRORS...

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Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,425
Location Location
INQUIRY DAY 4 - smoke and mirrors...

Day 4 of the Public Inquiry then, and my first visit to Brighton Town Hall to witness the latest episode in a saga so long-running, even George Lucas would baulk at attempting a screenplay.

Before I embark on this tale, can I just state for the record, that I am no Lord B, and my humble scribings are from the perspective of an amateur observer attempting to piece together a bewildering barrage of statistics, implications, statistics, thinly veiled threats, statistics, jargon, statistics, and a quite marvellous display of asking the same question half a dozen times in ten different ways, before arriving at the same answer. With some more statistics thrown in. I'm sure Lord B will comprehensively cover the issues of today, but I'll press on regardless and hope to be corrected where I have misunderstood.

The tone was set early on, before we even got down to the main issue in hand. Mr White (the NIMBY lawyer), shuffled to his desk, fidgetted awkwardly and announced he had some "bad news". Whats this then ? Has his dog died this morning ? Are Girls Aloud splitting up ? No, worse. Due to an "immovable professional engagement", Mr White would be unable to attend the Inquiry on the 8th and 9th of March. Meaning that the proceedings scheduled to be heard on those dates would have to be knocked back 5 weeks, to mid-April (the next available date). Mr White seemed coy as to the nature of this "immovable professional engagement", but the speculation in the galleries was that he was booked in for a bikini-wax and rubdown (with extras) at the King Alfred.

Albions lawyer Mr Clay was somewhat less than impressed with this, and made his feelings known to the Inspector in no uncertain terms by wrestling a 19th century brass plaque from the wall and savagely hurling it at Mr White, who was felled with a glancing blow to the temple...
(ok, thats not what happened)
Mr Clay said that this was unacceptable, that HE considered a Public Inquiry to be an "immovable professional engagement", and requested that Mr White "make it moveable". The Inspector inquired how "movable his unmovable professional engagement was, and whether, in fact, it could be moved". Mr White said he couldn't say at this stage, but would "see if he could move his immovable professional engagement, and let everyone know next week if he's managed to move it". Marvellous, thanks for that.

And so on to The Main Event. Mr Lee took to the stand. Mr Lee is the consultant hired by the Albion to give evidence on the traffic and transport issues surrounding each of the stadium sites in question. Presumably continuing from the previous day, in a clear, concise and impressive manner, he systematically set about utterly massacaring the feasibility of the other sites in terms of traffic access.

A stadium at Toads Hall Valley would create queues of an estimated 2600 vehicles stacking back off the sliproad and onto the A27, which would also have a knock-on effect as far as the A23. Jams of up to 6 kilometres could be expected. Mr Lee advised that they had tried to formulate ways of improving the junction of the A27 at the THV / Devils Dyke roundabout, but the geometry of the roundabout and surrounding area had made improvements of the scale required absolutely impossible. The Highways Agency would never sanction this level of queing, and in his expert opinion, there were no ways of resolving it.

On to Shoreham Airport then. No rail link. No buses. A stadium on land to the north-west of the airport would mean an additional 4,000-5,000 vehicles accessing it via the A27. The Highways Agency have already said 'no' to any new or improved junction being built there, meaning that on matchdays, the A27 at the Shoreham flyover would basically be completely "filled". Not ideal then.

Beeding. Not accessable by walking, cycling, stage coach (yee haa !) or presently rail. Reinstating a rail link there would run into "tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions". Road access presently a non-starter - currently a single lane, it would require a dual carriageway (4 lanes in total) to be built (right through an AONB) - and even once thats done, there isn't actually anywhere to park once you get there anyway. Super.

In summary, the other sites offered insufficient alternatives to car travel and parking. Meaning higher percentages of fans travelling by car. Meaning jams all over the shop. The blue rinse brigade sat opposite, in stoney silence. I glanced up and noticed an enormous, elaborate, heavy looking lantern hanging from the ceiling directly over several of the more crusty NIMBYS, and found myself idly wishing for it to come crashing down on them...just to see what would happen. Sadly, the lantern stayed stubbornly fixed to the ceiling, and my mind returned to the issues in hand.

This is without doubt my longest post ever. If you're still reading, then well done. Give yourself a little pat on the back. Why not get up and stretch your legs a little. Have a cigarette, add a few to the word association game, and come back refreshed and ready to continue. Go on, I can see you're flagging. See you in 5.




Back yet ? OK, lets crack on.
Mr Lee, having given his evidence, now braced himself for the inevitable cross-examination by Mr White. Now Mr White really does put the "cross" into cross-examination. You can also add to that irritation, confusion and eventually utter exhasperation. Mr White you see, when asking questions, adopts the manner of a magician. He could quite plausibly turn up in a cloak, white gloves and with a top hat and cane - because he has this magical capacity to make the most vital information required from his victims answers simply "disappear", by simply demanding a yes/no answer in order to disguise a plethora of crucial issues.

Example: Cycling. We are told by Mr White that it is accepted that people will potentially cycle up to 5 kilometres to a stadium. The 5km catchment area at Falmer would dictate that up to 8.8% of people could potentially cycle to a stadium there. However, were the stadium at Sheepcote, that potential 5km catchment area shows that there is a potential for 11% of people to cycle to the stadium (as a stadium at Sheepcote is closer to a larger connurbation of people). POTENTIAL, see ?

So, based on this, said Mr White to Mr Lee, it is in fact true that a stadium at Sheepcote is in fact MORE accessible by bike for more people than a stadium would be at Falmer. And, of course, the unavoidable answer is YES Mr White. Those figures do indeed prove that Sheepcote is more accessible by bike for more people than Falmer. And there's the magic, you see ? By completely and utterly ignoring the fact that in terms of national averages for football crowds, less than 1% of people actually cycle regularly to the ground, Mr White has magically given the illusion that there'll be a veritable Tour de France snaking its way to Sheepcote every other week. Which, of course, is rubbish. But don't lets let facts and reality get in the way of a good old-fashioned twisted stat.

And so it went on. Mr White was pressing very hard on Sheepcote, despite the problems on transport links. A summary of one of the exchanges went rather like a game of ping-pong:
"Could people get a train to Brighton Station and a bus to Sheepcote ?"
"Yes, but the buses to Sheepcote currently run at 35% capacity on a normal Saturday WITHOUT a stadium. On a matchday, this would mean they'd be oversubscribed."
"Can't Brighton & Hove lay on extra buses ?"
"They don't have them"
"Can't they get them ?"
"Its unliklely they'd want to invest in more buses just to be used 26 times a year on alternate Saturdays"
"But its more business"
"Yes, but even if they DID get more buses you'd also need additional qualified bus drivers to drive them. And its unlikley those drivers would be employed to just sit around for two weeks at a time just waiting for a Saturday home games to come round".

Pause from Mr White, then:

"But you do accept that it IS possible for people to get a train to Brighton station and then a bus to Sheepcote...." And off we went again.....

By this stage Mr White had managed to turn my brain to cheese, and I began hallucinating some wild and frightening images. Lord B (who I sat next to throughout the proceedings) suddenly morphed into a long-haired llama, and began munching contentedly on his traffic survey appendices. Mr Clay stood up, winked at the gallery, and proceeded to force an overstuffed lever-arch file into his ear. When my hands turned into lobster claws I finally blacked out, and eventually came to in the Smugglers with Crabtree BHA slapping me round the face.

Anyway, thats about all I can remember. I'm sure Lord B will post a more accurate account (if he's not actually now a llama), but that was my take on the day. Get along there if you can - its certainly an experience.
 
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The Large One

Who's Next?
Jul 7, 2003
52,343
97.2FM
So that's their trick - twist and shout. The stats that is.

This Mr White appears to be showing a spectacular lack of courtesy and respect to this Inquiry. A fair chunk of this extra £60,000 Lewes DC is spending is going on his expenses, and the lazy fucker can't be arsed to shift his skiing holiday or move his 'immovable' appointment. An appointment which didn't exist yesterday.

Lewes DC are behaving like arseholes. Opposing what we want with credible issues is one thing (something still missing from their argument), but to piss about like this is just plain f***ing LOW.

Incidentally, that exchange about train to Brighton and bus to Sheepcote has shown just how little they care about snarling central and east Brighton on Saturdays.
 
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mrhairy

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2004
1,250
Brighton
Excellent. Well done.:clap2:
 


Beach Hut

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 5, 2003
72,324
Living In a Box
Superb (as always) Easy - you spoil us
 








Jul 5, 2003
3,245
Cardiff
Re: INQUIRY DAY 4 - smoke and mirrors...

Easy 10 said:
By this stage Mr White had managed to turn my brain to cheese, and I began hallucinating some wild and frightening images. Lord B (who I sat next to throughout the proceedings) suddenly morphed into a long-haired llama, and began munching contentedly on his traffic survey appendices. Mr Clay stood up, winked at the gallery, and proceeded to force an overstuffed lever-arch file into his ear. When my hands turned into lobster claws I finally blacked out, and eventually came to in the Smugglers with Crabtree BHA slapping me round the face.

A fabulously entertaining account, and the above is one of the funniest things I've ever read on NSC.

10/10.

:clap2: :lolol: :clap2: :lolol: :clap2:
 




Yorkie

Sussex born and bred
Jul 5, 2003
32,367
dahn sarf
Thanks for making me laugh Easy whilst seething at the Nimby tactics.

I really hope this inspector will have none of their nonsense and say put up or shut up.
Can he actually force the nimby lawyer to attend or default?
 


Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,425
Location Location
Thanks for the comments peeps :) Once again it was a surreal experience. Sadly I don't think there were any quotes quite up there with the legendary "vehicle/bat collision" of 2003, but I'm sure Mr White will have something up his sleeve equally ludicrous.

Too much typing. My wrists havn't ached this much since....ooohhh....

...lets not go there.
 


Rangdo

Registered Cider Drinker
Apr 21, 2004
4,779
Cider Country
Very good :clap:. Do our arguments look convincing? Do the devil's solicitor's arguments look like they're being taken seriously or does it look like they're clutching at straws?
 




brighton rock

New member
Jul 5, 2003
4,430
lancing
Re: INQUIRY DAY 4 - smoke and mirrors...

Easy 10 said:
Day 4 of the Public Inquiry then, and my first visit to Brighton Town Hall to witness the latest episode in a saga so long-running, even George Lucas would baulk at attempting a screenplay.

Before I embark on this tale, can I just state for the record, that I am no Lord B, and my humble scribings are from the perspective of an amateur observer attempting to piece together a bewildering barrage of statistics, implications, statistics, thinly veiled threats, statistics, jargon, statistics, and a quite marvellous display of asking the same question half a dozen times in ten different ways, before arriving at the same answer. With some more statistics thrown in. I'm sure Lord B will comprehensively cover the issues of today, but I'll press on regardless and hope to be corrected where I have misunderstood.

The tone was set early on, before we even got down to the main issue in hand. Mr White (the NIMBY lawyer), shuffled to his desk, fidgetted awkwardly and announced he had some "bad news". Whats this then ? Has his dog died this morning ? Are Girls Aloud splitting up ? No, worse. Due to an "immovable professional engagement", Mr White would be unable to attend the Inquiry on the 8th and 9th of March. Meaning that the proceedings scheduled to be heard on those dates would have to be knocked back 5 weeks, to mid-April (the next available date). Mr White seemed coy as to the nature of this "immovable professional engagement", but the speculation in the galleries was that he was booked in for a bikini-wax and rubdown (with extras) at the King Alfred.

Albions lawyer Mr Clay was somewhat less than impressed with this, and made his feelings known to the Inspector in no uncertain terms by wrestling a 19th century brass plaque from the wall and savagely hurling it at Mr White, who was felled with a glancing blow to the temple...
(ok, thats not what happened)
Mr Clay said that this was unacceptable, that HE considered a Public Inquiry to be an "immovable professional engagement", and requested that Mr White "make it moveable". The Inspector inquired how "movable his unmovable professional engagement was, and whether, in fact, it could be moved". Mr White said he couldn't say at this stage, but would "see if he could move his immovable professional engagement, and let everyone know next week if he's managed to move it". Marvellous, thanks for that.

And so on to The Main Event. Mr Lee took to the stand. Mr Lee is the consultant hired by the Albion to give evidence on the traffic and transport issues surrounding each of the stadium sites in question. Presumably continuing from the previous day, in a clear, concise and impressive manner, he systematically set about utterly massacaring the feasibility of the other sites in terms of traffic access.

A stadium at Toads Hall Valley would create queues of an estimated 2600 vehicles stacking back off the sliproad and onto the A27, which would also have a knock-on effect as far as the A23. Jams of up to 6 kilometres could be expected. Mr Lee advised that they had tried to formulate ways of improving the junction of the A27 at the THV / Devils Dyke roundabout, but the geometry of the roundabout and surrounding area had made improvements of the scale required absolutely impossible. The Highways Agency would never sanction this level of queing, and in his expert opinion, there were no ways of resolving it.

On to Shoreham Airport then. No rail link. No buses. A stadium on land to the north-west of the airport would mean an additional 4,000-5,000 vehicles accessing it via the A27. The Highways Agency have already said 'no' to any new or improved junction being built there, meaning that on matchdays, the A27 at the Shoreham flyover would basically be completely "filled". Not ideal then.

Beeding. Not accessable by walking, cycling, stage coach (yee haa !) or presently rail. Reinstating a rail link there would run into "tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions". Road access presently a non-starter - currently a single lane, it would require a dual carriageway (4 lanes in total) to be built (right through an AONB) - and even once thats done, there isn't actually anywhere to park once you get there anyway. Super.

In summary, the other sites offered insufficient alternatives to car travel and parking. Meaning higher percentages of fans travelling by car. Meaning jams all over the shop. The blue rinse brigade sat opposite, in stoney silence. I glanced up and noticed an enormous, elaborate, heavy looking lantern hanging from the ceiling directly over several of the more crusty NIMBYS, and found myself idly wishing for it to come crashing down on them...just to see what would happen. Sadly, the lantern stayed stubbornly fixed to the ceiling, and my mind returned to the issues in hand.

This is without doubt my longest post ever. If you're still reading, then well done. Give yourself a little pat on the back. Why not get up and stretch your legs a little. Have a cigarette, add a few to the word association game, and come back refreshed and ready to continue. Go on, I can see you're flagging. See you in 5.




Back yet ? OK, lets crack on.
Mr Lee, having given his evidence, now braced himself for the inevitable cross-examination by Mr White. Now Mr White really does put the "cross" into cross-examination. You can also add to that irritation, confusion and eventually utter exhasperation. Mr White you see, when asking questions, adopts the manner of a magician. He could quite plausibly turn up in a cloak, white gloves and with a top hat and cane - because he has this magical capacity to make the most vital information required from his victims answers simply "disappear", by simply demanding a yes/no answer in order to disguise a plethora of crucial issues.

Example: Cycling. We are told by Mr White that it is accepted that people will potentially cycle up to 5 kilometres to a stadium. The 5km catchment area at Falmer would dictate that up to 8.8% of people could potentially cycle to a stadium there. However, were the stadium at Sheepcote, that potential 5km catchment area shows that there is a potential for 11% of people to cycle to the stadium (as a stadium at Sheepcote is closer to a larger connurbation of people). POTENTIAL, see ?

So, based on this, said Mr White to Mr Lee, it is in fact true that a stadium at Sheepcote is in fact MORE accessible by bike for more people than a stadium would be at Falmer. And, of course, the unavoidable answer is YES Mr White. Those figures do indeed prove that Sheepcote is more accessible by bike for more people than Falmer. And there's the magic, you see ? By completely and utterly ignoring the fact that in terms of national averages for football crowds, less than 1% of people actually cycle regularly to the ground, Mr White has magically given the illusion that there'll be a veritable Tour de France snaking its way to Sheepcote every other week. Which, of course, is rubbish. But don't lets let facts and reality get in the way of a good old-fashioned twisted stat.

And so it went on. Mr White was pressing very hard on Sheepcote, despite the problems on transport links. A summary of one of the exchanges went rather like a game of ping-pong:
"Could people get a train to Brighton Station and a bus to Sheepcote ?"
"Yes, but the buses to Sheepcote currently run at 35% capacity on a normal Saturday WITHOUT a stadium. On a matchday, this would mean they'd be oversubscribed."
"Can't Brighton & Hove lay on extra buses ?"
"They don't have them"
"Can't they get them ?"
"Its unliklely they'd want to invest in more buses just to be used 26 times a year on alternate Saturdays"
"But its more business"
"Yes, but even if they DID get more buses you'd also need additional qualified bus drivers to drive them. And its unlikley those drivers would be employed to just sit around for two weeks at a time just waiting for a Saturday home games to come round".

Pause from Mr White, then:

"But you do accept that it IS possible for people to get a train to Brighton station and then a bus to Sheepcote...." And off we went again.....

By this stage Mr White had managed to turn my brain to cheese, and I began hallucinating some wild and frightening images. Lord B (who I sat next to throughout the proceedings) suddenly morphed into a long-haired llama, and began munching contentedly on his traffic survey appendices. Mr Clay stood up, winked at the gallery, and proceeded to force an overstuffed lever-arch file into his ear. When my hands turned into lobster claws I finally blacked out, and eventually came to in the Smugglers with Crabtree BHA slapping me round the face.

Anyway, thats about all I can remember. I'm sure Lord B will post a more accurate account (if he's not actually now a llama), but that was my take on the day. Get along there if you can - its certainly an experience.

top post:lolol: :clap:
 








Bwian

Kiss my (_!_)
Jul 14, 2003
15,898
Thanks for that Easy and my apologies for being serious after your gem of a report:

I am well pissed off with those f***ing NIMBYs and their scrote of a representative. That wanker has known for months when this inquiry would be sitting and the tnuc now has something more important? Whoever is in charge of the proceedings should tell him to f*** off and cancel his other arrangements. If he can't or won't then it should be "tough shit-either be here or we continue without you".

It is clear that the NIMBYs think that any underhanded tactic is justified. Little Britain is alive and well in Falmer Village.
 


Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,425
Location Location
Rangdo said:
Very good :clap:. Do our arguments look convincing? Do the devil's solicitor's arguments look like they're being taken seriously or does it look like they're clutching at straws?
Mr Lee was very convincing - mainly because while Mr White was constantly banging on with "ifs", "buts" and "potential", Mr Lee was dealing far more closely with the REALITY of the situation. Yes, potentially 11% of 22,500 people could cycle to Sheepcote...but we all know the reality is that just ain't gonna happen.

We were also taken off on a tangent late on re traffic access, when Mr White (quite rightly) said "but the scenarios we are looking at here are for 22,500 people attending a match, when really the numbers will be less than that".

To which Mr Lee eloquently replied that "the criteria is for a 22,500 stadium, and those are the figures we must work with" (I'm paraphrasing) - this really was shooting fish in a barrell. Of COURSE they have to do the surveys according to 22,500 - otherwise how do we know the whole infrastructure won't collapse if we havn't catered for it at capacity ? Bizarre line of questioning.

I wouldn't say it was completely "one way traffic" though (pun partially intended). When the question of the travel voucher was raised (the one on the match ticket), Mr Lee categorically stated that the voucher system could ONLY be brought in for Falmer, none of the other sites, just Falmer. Which seemed a little out of place to me. He went on to explain that it was only viable for Falmer because Falmer is the only site which offers the viable transport alternatives to the car, and "you can't sell people something (ie the voucher) that they cannot use". I felt my eyebrows raising slightly, and Mr White will DEFINATELY be revisiting that subject, you can bet.

But overall, Mr White did seem to be rather straw-clutching on some tiny details to cast doubt on the bigger picture. Thats his job I suppose, but we've got the stronger arguments and the facts to back them up, and thats all that should matter.
 
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Lady Bracknell

Handbag at Dawn
Jul 5, 2003
4,514
The Metropolis
Re: INQUIRY DAY 4 - smoke and mirrors...

Easy 10 said:
Mr Lee, having given his evidence, now braced himself for the inevitable cross-examination by Mr White. Now Mr White really does put the "cross" into cross-examination. You can also add to that irritation, confusion and eventually utter exhasperation.

Mr White you see, when asking questions, adopts the manner of a magician. He could quite plausibly turn up in a cloak, white gloves and with a top hat and cane - because he has this magical capacity to make the most vital information required from his victims answers simply "disappear", by simply demanding a yes/no answer in order to disguise a plethora of crucial issues..

The temptation was too much for me, m'lud...
(especially having got one of the crucial elements already stored in the picture library)

magic_moments_001.jpg


Absolutely top post, easy!!
:clap2: :clap2:
 
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Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,425
Location Location
Juan Albion said:
what about the female assistant?
Ahhh yes, young Megan.
She was looking quite resplendent in a businesslike but closely-fitted and very feminine suit consisting of a skirt (sadly below the knee) and tailored jacket, which served to emphasise her natural curvacuousness. A thin cotton blouse could be seen underneath, open to the neck but tantalisingly no further. She wore her shimmering blonde hair down, and had some lightly applied blusher and a hint of gloss on her lips, giving them that mesmerising sheen of moisture you see on glamorous sex sirens from the 50's. The smooth lines of her calves were eccentuauted by the heels of her shoes - not stilettos obviously, but just high enough to give them that extra firmness and defintion.

But I barely noticed her really.
 
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Weezle

Active member
Jul 7, 2003
714
Brighton
Was the enquiry not postponed originally because Mr White couldn't make it at the first suggested date as he had a prior three week engagement or am i just dreaming it? If this is the case, surely he can't ask for more time off after it's already been rearranged because of him?
 


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