[Politics] Dawn Butler MP

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You can rule me out of your 'entire nation'. I don't want to stand firm with the US at all. In fact, I'd be very glad if we joined France and Spain in protecting our own culture by restricting their cultural influence on us too.

It wasn't rocket science to see what a clusterfvck the illegal invasion of Iraq would turn out to be. You only had to spend no more than half an hour of your time listening to Tony Benn history lessons to know that. In Afghanistan there was a long British (and Russian) tradition of getting things badly wrong. Yet lessons clearly not learnt when there's power at stake. The whole 'World Policeman' bollox is just that, bollox and hypocrisy. The US is, and has been for a very long time, the biggest threat to world peace. America should look at itself for the real axis of evil.

As for Brexit, and the mess we're now in with this extreme right wing Government. Perhaps if Corbyn had had the balls to stand firm and preach, as Labour party leader, what he had been preaching from the back benches for years, then we wouldn't be saddled with this lot now. Had he made the Socialist case for Brexit then I firmly believe the collapse of the red wall would never have materialised.


I feel more let down by Corbyn than I ever will by Blair. Blair was just the same old British politician. I knew that. I expected better of Corbyn though. Sadly, he proved to be weak beyond belief as a leader.

You misunderstand. I did not mean the entire nation including you agreeing with this. I didn't even mean me. I meant the entire noisy nation of news media and the chattering populace. Blair had one choice - go with the flow or lose the next election. It saddens me that this was the actualité.

If Blair had stood firm, what would have been the consequences? America would have done exactly what it did. They would not have sent Blix back for another ten years of Saddam taking the piss, invading the occasional neighbour, scudding Israel. And Blair would have lost the following general election. Michael Howard would have become PM.

Ah, yes, Michael Howard, the man of the pipple:

"Mr Blair's been in charge of our immigration system for eight years. And it's been eight years of chaos.

"Surely it's not that hard for an island nation to control its borders?

"People are longing for controlled immigration, a fair system that stops the abuse of our country's generosity.

"People are longing for a government that gives them value for money and lower taxes. Mr Blair's government is taking more and more of people's hard-earned money, and wasting it.

"People are realistic about tax. They don't mind paying it, as long as they get something in return. With Mr Blair, it seems that all they get in return is more pen-pushing, more bureaucracy, more waste.

Some reporters queried whether Mr Howard's list sounded "more like a list of grievances than a programme for government", but Mr Howard said he hoped the British public would read the manifesto in its entirety."

I am many things. One of the things I am not is a tory. It really couldn't have taken Blair, Mandleson and Straw more than 5 seconds working out how to jump on this issue.

In an ideal world I would have many many things done differently. However we live in this world. And I don't even say 'unfortunately'. I dreamt of a socialist utopia for a few hours when I was fifteen. Then I reset my ambitions towards supporting achievable goals.

Blair made the UK a nicer place. I know that for some his support of the US in the middle East was unforgiveable, but it was completely inconsequential because the US would have done exactly the same without us.

 

[1066familyman]

I 100% agree with you that Corbyn should have stuck to his guns if he was going to have any chance of winning. But I genuinely don't think he ever had the option. There are multiple reasons why, once the vote had happened, Labour needed to commit to Brexit and make sure that what we got was a well managed, and mainly 'soft' Brexit. That was entirely achieveable in principle, but proved impossible in practice. I supported Corbyn but I knew he was, indeed, a weak leader. Because he was very inexperienced in the job (having been working at the margins of his party for his entire politcal life) didn't have the support of most of his own party and had a history of rebelling which undermined his credibility when demanding loyalty.

He was always going to be fighting the right wing and it's media supporters. But what really did for him in my opinion was his own party. What chance do you have when your own MPs are eagerly seeking opportunities to go onto popular TV programmes and declare that they'd happily 'stab you in the front'. The 2019 manifesto was a mess and two years of preparation after the near-shock of 2017 enabled the previously complacent press to successfully build up their attacks. But I still believe that it was primarily Brexit that lost Labour the election. Corbyn's instincts were right but he was eventually pushed down the suicidal 'second referendum' path by pressure from within his own party. If he hadn't agreed to that he'd have been removed from within. There was still the chance to pull it back, with the opportunity to bring down the government, have an interim regime to oversee a soft Brexit (which would have been far from a disaster) and then a new election which would have given Johnson NO chance without the weapon of Brexit to use. But that option was removed by the delusional Lib Dems and their expectation that they could become a major party again as the champions of 'remain'. It was terrible terrible politics and Cummings ran rings around them all.

So now we have Johnson in charge, a hard Brexit in place and STILL those that insisted Brexit had to be overturned to protect their right to holidays in Tuscany trying to blame everyone but themselves for it.

Just my opinion like.

A much more nuanced summing up of the situation than my 6th form soap box rant.

Well said!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You can rule me out of your 'entire nation'. I don't want to stand firm with the US at all. In fact, I'd be very glad if we joined France and Spain in protecting our own culture by restricting their cultural influence on us too.

It wasn't rocket science to see what a clusterfvck the illegal invasion of Iraq would turn out to be. You only had to spend no more than half an hour of your time listening to Tony Benn history lessons to know that. In Afghanistan there was a long British (and Russian) tradition of getting things badly wrong. Yet lessons clearly not learnt when there's power at stake. The whole 'World Policeman' bollox is just that, bollox and hypocrisy. The US is, and has been for a very long time, the biggest threat to world peace. America should look at itself for the real axis of evil.

As for Brexit, and the mess we're now in with this extreme right wing Government. Perhaps if Corbyn had had the balls to stand firm and preach, as Labour party leader, what he had been preaching from the back benches for years, then we wouldn't be saddled with this lot now. Had he made the Socialist case for Brexit then I firmly believe the collapse of the red wall would never have materialised.


I feel more let down by Corbyn than I ever will by Blair. Blair was just the same old British politician. I knew that. I expected better of Corbyn though. Sadly, he proved to be weak beyond belief as a leader.

I think you misread Corbyn. Corbyn was anti EU. He did not agree with a Europe that imposed employment laws that he regarded as anti worker, and recognised that power held by the EU might be used against what he saw as the interests of the British worker. Tony Benn was the same. Corbyn had plenty of balls. He spent his entire life voting against his own party in parliament. What he lacked was brains, and the ability to see that sometimes you have to trade some of you goals for the greater good. Politics is the art of the possible, is it not? Knowing that is what constitutes political nous. Having blissed out festival goers singing 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' is one thing. Getting their mums and dads to vote labour is another.

I fear I am engaging with Lilliputian issues here. We can all wish that Corbyn had been completely different. What was it Richard Richard said in Bottom? "I wish....I just wish....that everything could have been completely different".

Anyway, never mind. I salute your sincerity. I don't normally reply twice to a post. And, unlike my middle brother to whom I would never dare venture forth with these views, I am confident you won't get red in the face and start shouting at me

 

[highflyer]

A much more nuanced summing up of the situation than my 6th form soap box rant.

Well said!

We aren't going to win this on here, where Corbyn is the anti-christ and you can ONLY ever be 100% for or 100% against Brexit.

But nice to know at least there are two of us.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Blair was important to Bush but not vital. Bush even offered Blair a get-out but he didn't take it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/apr/23/uk.iraq

Which was despicable of Blair, but it only goes to emphasise that the USA would have carried on even if Blair had pulled us out. And we would not have gone in alone (and couldn't) if the USA had suddenly thought better of it. So although Blair must carry his share of the guilt over Iraq for supporting the invasion, he didn't enable it. Bush, Cheney and their gang were in sole charge.

Whereas you'd have to say that Johnson carries the can for the UK response to COVID. The most egregious omission was surely failing to close the borders to arrivals from India when it was known that a dangerous variant was rampant there. Okay, at the beginning there was understandable confusion. But by then there was very little excuse. Hundreds, maybe thousands, will have died because of Johnson's desperation to get a trade deal done in a vain attempt to save face over Brexit..

Only if Blair felt that it would be better for Britain to gift Michael Howard and his pipple the helm in the up coming general election.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I realise that I have been defending Blair on the basis of the 'greater good' argument. I quite realise that millions support Boris (and indeed in America, support Trump) because of a similar calculation. Inevitably, as voters, our perception of the greater good (whether it be for the nation if we are altruisitic, or ouselves and our family if we are less so) will always be the driver for where we cast our vote.

Back to the topic of the thread, this politician calculated that a day's ban for calling Boris a liar in parliament served the greater good. Those of us who regard Boris as the best man available will say she is just a silly fool. Those of us who regard Boris as the problem will see her as wise and effective.

Good old confirmation bias (and I don't exclude myself from that).

 

[Randy McNob]

in case of any doubt....

[tweet]1420634366435278849[/tweet]

 

[Danny Wilson Said]

I realise that I have been defending Blair on the basis of the 'greater good' argument. I quite realise that millions support Boris (and indeed in America, support Trump) because of a similar calculation. Inevitably, as voters, our perception of the greater good (whether it be for the nation if we are altruisitic, or ouselves and our family if we are less so) will always be the driver for where we cast our vote.

Back to the topic of the thread, this politician calculated that a day's ban for calling Boris a liar in parliament served the greater good. Those of us who regard Boris as the best man available will say she is just a silly fool. Those of us who regard Boris as the problem will see her as wise and effective.

Good old confirmation bias (and I don't exclude myself from that).

Just to avoid going back to the topic of this thread for a moment, wasn't the 2019 election unusual in that it wasn't won from the centre ground? It surely can't happen again. Johnson, Sunak etc are now trying to re-occupy that centre with socialist spending policies and downplaying the higher taxes on the less well-off that will inevitably follow and will no doubt attempt to win the next one from a centrist position, however illusory.

By electing Corbyn, Labour abandoned any hope of victory, because Corbyn would always be seen as either far left or in the pockets of the far left whatever he said. And the electorate is always far more suspicious of the far left than the far right. They had effectively lost as soon as they put up one left-winger in the leadership election while three moderates spilt the sensible vote.

And while I'm here, I want to know why Theresa May doesn't get more blame for the sh*t we're in now. It was she who decided that Brexit meant leaving the customs union and single market. Not even the Vote Leave crazies had ever dared suggest that (although it was no doubt their secret desire).

 

[schmunk]

And while I'm here, I want to know why Theresa May doesn't get more blame for the sh*t we're in now. It was she who decided that Brexit meant leaving the customs union and single market. Not even the Vote Leave crazies had ever dared suggest that (although it was no doubt their secret desire).

The EU wouldn't allow us to remain in the Single Market without also retaining the EU "Four Freedoms", which includes freedom of movement, i.e. unfettered migration for EU citizens.

 

[Randy McNob]

The EU wouldn't allow us to remain in the Single Market without also retaining the EU "Four Freedoms", which includes freedom of movement, i.e. unfettered migration for EU citizens.

Perfect. i'm sure if British people were asked if they wanted their freedom of movement back they would

 

[mr sheen]

Perfect. i'm sure if British people were asked if they wanted their freedom of movement back they would

Yep, at this rate they'll be wanting to go and find work in Poland, Bulgaria etc before long

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

i.e. unfettered migration for EU citizens.

like the -

13,697 Irish
9,904 Polish
7,469 Portuguese
6,528 Italians
5,580 Spanish
4,731 Romanians
3,317 Greeks
2,405 Germans

who work in the NHS and make up 9.1% of NHS doctors and 6% of NHS nurses.

But of course you could kick them all out - just make sure you don't need hospital treatment when you do.

 

[rippleman]

I 100% agree with you that Corbyn should have stuck to his guns if he was going to have any chance of winning.

And this is where it went sadly wrong.

Corbyn (like Tony Benn) was a lifelong Brexiteer. His failure to come up with any coherent policy on Brexit following the referendum cost him dear. As a strong Corbyn supporter I emailed him before the GE reminding him of the manifesto pledge that the party would abide by the result of the referendum and urged him to stand firm on his beliefs, put the party in a position to support Brexit but to negotiate a "softer" deal than the Tories or there could be dire consequences for the party.

I had an airy-fairy response from one of his minions. The party had no policy or strategy on Brexit. And Corbyn got hammered in the polls. I take no pleasure whatsoever in being right. In fact it saddens me. But if I could see this coming I do wonder why Corbyn apparently could not.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just to avoid going back to the topic of this thread for a moment, wasn't the 2019 election unusual in that it wasn't won from the centre ground? It surely can't happen again. Johnson, Sunak etc are now trying to re-occupy that centre with socialist spending policies and downplaying the higher taxes on the less well-off that will inevitably follow and will no doubt attempt to win the next one from a centrist position, however illusory.

By electing Corbyn, Labour abandoned any hope of victory, because Corbyn would always be seen as either far left or in the pockets of the far left whatever he said. And the electorate is always far more suspicious of the far left than the far right. They had effectively lost as soon as they put up one left-winger in the leadership election while three moderates spilt the sensible vote.

And while I'm here, I want to know why Theresa May doesn't get more blame for the sh*t we're in now. It was she who decided that Brexit meant leaving the customs union and single market. Not even the Vote Leave crazies had ever dared suggest that (although it was no doubt their secret desire).

Good points.

I was thinking of mentioning this at some point....I had an unpleasant experience chatting with my middle brother 2 days ago. His opening gambit was 'how can Boris be PM when Gove said he was a cretin and unfit to be leader?' I am no fan of Boris or Gove, but I told him I didn't remember that at all. Gove had to offer some excuse for standing (other than ego) so he had to say he'd be a better leader (was my recollection). Brother checked this up and I was right, and he concluded that he was right and the electorate are morons.....

So I said that part of the reason labour lost the last two elections was because some of their people mocked the white working class, and that you can never win if you do that (there were other reasons of course and I'll come on to Jezza, if you'll pardon the unpleasant image, later). He got increasingly into 'well most of the electorate are morons'.

I said that as a labour member (I am, brother isn't) we have to find a way of ensuring the people and the policies are credible. I mentioned that my union has only ever passed one motion demanding a boycott of one nation, and that is Israel (3 weeks ago - I opposed the motion). It soon degenerated into a row about Corbyn. In my view by his actions supporting militant anti Israelis (they always say 'anti zionist' but we know what they mean) including sharing a platform with a member of Hamas, while never identifying antisemitism as an evil, and indeed avoiding using the word (we all know Corbyn's 'I codemn all forms of prejudice' mantra, but Corbyn is happy enough to identify the persecuted the Palestinians by name - never the Jews). Corbyn may not actually be antisemitic but he is a completely useless politician, and was rightly suspended by Starmer.

Brother is fuming by now. 'Corbyn lost becaue the electorate were stupid and fooled by the media'....'Corbyn is the most popular labour leader ever because he increased labour membership' . 'Even some Jews condemn Israel policies'. Oh dear.

I pointed out that by frothing at the mouth and relenlessly backing the Palestinians his sort have made it easy for the likes of Bibi to hold sway and break international law and persecute the Palestinians. Mistreatment of Palestinians cannot be made right by hatred of Jews. FFS. Corbyn was never guilty of the latter but he identified with people who were. The supporters of Israel who have influence on power in the US and elsewhere have acquired that influence by being good citizens, not by attacking muslims/Arabs.

I was shocked by all this and sadly have to admit I then wound him up, by accusing him of washing his hands of the future of the nation by backing unelectable sects and allowing a tory hegemony.

It didn't end well. And I hadn't even mentioned labour's greatest leader - Blair, who my brother regards as a tory traitor and puppet of Murdoch.

So there are lefty equivalents of the right wing zealots, as of course we know. Thankfully there are few ultra left embarrassments posting on NSC, even though the likes of certain prats I won't name like to pretend some of us won't rest until the nation has been reduced to ill-nourished and dirty collectives who leave the crops to rot and the animals to starve while they discuss new ways of worshiping black people while plotting the overthrow of Israel and enshrining the right of gay men to actually, physically, give birth (a la Monty Python and the overthrow of the Romans).

Finally, don't get me wrong, the plight of the Palestinians is a disgrace. The launching of missiles against Israel, acts of terrorism and the various other actions are understandable. They are also foolish. The 'west' could effect some change. But not easily done, yet, because it is too easy for any traction to be lost, and the wheels of change left to spin, when they are set in the goo of the froth of anti Jew sputum expectorated by well-meaning but misguided 'anti zionist' fools. The motion passed by my union recently was embarrassing. I signed off the Teams meeting by commenting that it doesn't really matter, after all, that the motion passed because why would Israel take any note of a load of old wankers in tweed jackets with faux leather elbow patches, patronisingly voting in favour of the efforts of the young Arab lecturer in 'Arab persecution' who led the motion? At least Starmer doesn't support this shithousery so there is hope.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And this is where it went sadly wrong.

Corbyn (like Tony Benn) was a lifelong Brexiteer. His failure to come up with any coherent policy on Brexit following the referendum cost him dear. As a strong Corbyn supporter I emailed him before the GE reminding him of the manifesto pledge that the party would abide by the result of the referendum and urged him to stand firm on his beliefs, put the party in a position to support Brexit but to negotiate a "softer" deal than the Tories or there could be dire consequences for the party.

I had an airy-fairy response from one of his minions. The party had no policy or strategy on Brexit. And Corbyn got hammered in the polls. I take no pleasure whatsoever in being right. In fact it saddens me. But if I could see this coming I do wonder why Corbyn apparently could not.

Have you questioned, yet, your strong support for Corbyn?

As a bloke to chat about liberation politics with down the pub, he's your man.

As a political leader he was always a gold-plated wrong 'un. His voting record against his own party and his sharing a platform with members of Hamas ('I dodn't know the views of the man at he time; that said I wouldn't change anything' FFS) was a clue, there.

You are quite right that Corbyn needed a clear policy on Brexit. I have always thought that the referendum was advisory which, if so, allows some wriggle room. However the correct political approach would have been to consider whether Brexit could safely be opposed after the referendum (the answer quickly became 'no') then sit back as opposition and say 'It is for the government, the Conservatives who created Brexit, to deliver Brexit. We will not oppose any deal, but we will abstain on any vote, given that we, the labour party, are not involved in the deal making discussions and it would be wrong of us to either hitch a ride on he back of any successes or be dragged down by any failures'. In other words clearly and unequivocally step away. It would have been a gamble to step away because if Brexit turns out to be a success then May (as it was) would get the credit. But sniping from the sidelines was never an option. Sniping bacause you think you could 'do' Brexit better is pathetic. Not actually knowing which of these things is your position (Corbyn) is unforgivable.

For sake of balance, I resigned from labour during the mid Blair period when he decided to fund all religious schools, and I wrote to the leadership via the normal channel, and did not receive a reply. My point was that funding Catholic and Protestant schools in Glasgow, and Islamic schools in Bradford (this was before it was made illegal to teach children that homosexuals should be stoned, etc.) was a recipe for the creation of ghettos, a block to integration, etc. 'We think you are wrong but we will monitor the situation' would have sufficed at the time.

I am blessed, as you will have noted, with the great gift of hindsight

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And ended the troubles.

You would rather it had carried on, then? I can understand (though not condone) your voting for a pig in a blue rosette out of lumpen tribal loyalty, but happily sitting by while murders in the name of The Pope or The Queen perpetuated in perpetuity?

Tell me, if not Blair, who won the war against terror (in the UK)? And tell me who is risking rewinding the clock?

I'll leave you off ignore for a day in anticipation of your whataboutery-free reply. Don't disappoint me, now. No ninny prancing and that

 

[schmunk]

like the -

13,697 Irish
9,904 Polish
7,469 Portuguese
6,528 Italians
5,580 Spanish
4,731 Romanians
3,317 Greeks
2,405 Germans

who work in the NHS and make up 9.1% of NHS doctors and 6% of NHS nurses.

But of course you could kick them all out - just make sure you don't need hospital treatment when you do.

Indeed, albeit that was 'fixed' with the EU Settled Status scheme.

p.s. the tone of your post in response to mine suggests you think I'm pro-Brexit. I'm not.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Finally, don't get me wrong, the plight of the Palestinians is a disgrace. The launching of missiles against Israel, acts of terrorism and the various other actions are understandable. They are also foolish. The 'west' could effect some change. But not easily done, yet, because it is too easy for any traction to be lost, and the wheels of change left to spin, when they are set in the goo of the froth of anti Jew sputum expectorated by well-meaning but misguided 'anti zionist' fools. The motion passed by my union recently was embarrassing. I signed off the Teams meeting by commenting that it doesn't really matter, after all, that the motion passed because why would Israel take any note of a load of old wankers in tweed jackets with faux leather elbow patches, patronisingly voting in favour of the efforts of the young Arab lecturer in 'Arab persecution' who led the motion? At least Starmer doesn't support this shithousery so there is hope.

I agree that the plight of the Palestinians is a disgrace, but it's not what the white working class wants to hear about from Labour. They want stuff done about hospitals, buses and immigration, and as the vox pops from deluded voters in Hartlepool suggested, think they are more likely to get that from Tories. They may well learn the folly of that view sooner rather than later - immigration from the EU was only ever a third of the total, and I suspect it's the brown faces that most of them object to rather than people speaking Polish in the laundrette, whatever they say.

Palestine, of course, could be helped out tomorrow by rich Arab states but it suits them to have Israel as the local bad guy - a role that they get suckered into all too easily.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I agree that the plight of the Palestinians is a disgrace, but it's not what the white working class wants to hear about from Labour. They want stuff done about hospitals, buses and immigration, and as the vox pops from deluded voters in Hartlepool suggested, think they are more likely to get that from Tories. They may well learn the folly of that view sooner rather than later - immigration from the EU was only ever a third of the total, and I suspect it's the brown faces that most of them object to rather than people speaking Polish in the laundrette, whatever they say.

Palestine, of course, could be helped out tomorrow by rich Arab states but it suits them to have Israel as the local bad guy - a role that they get suckered into all too easily.

Nearer 50% ...

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-immigration-uk-has-been-bigger-we-thought/

Possibly more ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56846637

 

[The Middle Ground]

Good points.

I was thinking of mentioning this at some point....I had an unpleasant experience chatting with my middle brother 2 days ago. His opening gambit was 'how can Boris be PM when Gove said he was a cretin and unfit to be leader?' I am no fan of Boris or Gove, but I told him I didn't remember that at all. Gove had to offer some excuse for standing (other than ego) so he had to say he'd be a better leader (was my recollection). Brother checked this up and I was right, and he concluded that he was right and the electorate are morons.....

So I said that part of the reason labour lost the last two elections was because some of their people mocked the white working class, and that you can never win if you do that (there were other reasons of course and I'll come on to Jezza, if you'll pardon the unpleasant image, later). He got increasingly into 'well most of the electorate are morons'.

I said that as a labour member (I am, brother isn't) we have to find a way of ensuring the people and the policies are credible. I mentioned that my union has only ever passed one motion demanding a boycott of one nation, and that is Israel (3 weeks ago - I opposed the motion). It soon degenerated into a row about Corbyn. In my view by his actions supporting militant anti Israelis (they always say 'anti zionist' but we know what they mean) including sharing a platform with a member of Hamas, while never identifying antisemitism as an evil, and indeed avoiding using the word (we all know Corbyn's 'I codemn all forms of prejudice' mantra, but Corbyn is happy enough to identify the persecuted the Palestinians by name - never the Jews). Corbyn may not actually be antisemitic but he is a completely useless politician, and was rightly suspended by Starmer.

Brother is fuming by now. 'Corbyn lost becaue the electorate were stupid and fooled by the media'....'Corbyn is the most popular labour leader ever because he increased labour membership' . 'Even some Jews condemn Israel policies'. Oh dear.

I pointed out that by frothing at the mouth and relenlessly backing the Palestinians his sort have made it easy for the likes of Bibi to hold sway and break international law and persecute the Palestinians. Mistreatment of Palestinians cannot be made right by hatred of Jews. FFS. Corbyn was never guilty of the latter but he identified with people who were. The supporters of Israel who have influence on power in the US and elsewhere have acquired that influence by being good citizens, not by attacking muslims/Arabs.

I was shocked by all this and sadly have to admit I then wound him up, by accusing him of washing his hands of the future of the nation by backing unelectable sects and allowing a tory hegemony.

It didn't end well. And I hadn't even mentioned labour's greatest leader - Blair, who my brother regards as a tory traitor and puppet of Murdoch.

So there are lefty equivalents of the right wing zealots, as of course we know. Thankfully there are few ultra left embarrassments posting on NSC, even though the likes of certain prats I won't name like to pretend some of us won't rest until the nation has been reduced to ill-nourished and dirty collectives who leave the crops to rot and the animals to starve while they discuss new ways of worshiping black people while plotting the overthrow of Israel and enshrining the right of gay men to actually, physically, give birth (a la Monty Python and the overthrow of the Romans).

Finally, don't get me wrong, the plight of the Palestinians is a disgrace. The launching of missiles against Israel, acts of terrorism and the various other actions are understandable. They are also foolish. The 'west' could effect some change. But not easily done, yet, because it is too easy for any traction to be lost, and the wheels of change left to spin, when they are set in the goo of the froth of anti Jew sputum expectorated by well-meaning but misguided 'anti zionist' fools. The motion passed by my union recently was embarrassing. I signed off the Teams meeting by commenting that it doesn't really matter, after all, that the motion passed because why would Israel take any note of a load of old wankers in tweed jackets with faux leather elbow patches, patronisingly voting in favour of the efforts of the young Arab lecturer in 'Arab persecution' who led the motion? At least Starmer doesn't support this shithousery so there is hope.

Wow! I have finally found someone who knows everything, sigh.