David "1 shot 1 cross Man of the match" Beckham

[drew]

I actually thought SWP played ok, beat his men quite a few times but just couldn't seem to get the final ball right. I would have given it to Crouch mind, 2 goals and thought he held the ball up ok, not fantastic but no-one was.

Those long balls that look so great, what vision etc.etc.etc Andy Townsend blah blah. but they get to their intended target 1 in 10 times and even if they do, they go to a winger who still inevitably by the time he brings the ball under control has to beat his man, this time to beat his full back then allows his central defenders time to get back and re-group.

The key reason why England are a much better side now is speed. We have incredibly fast players all over the pitch, SWP, Lennon, Walcott. it is the speed of these players getting past their full backs that allow us to score so many goals. We are the top scorers (in all groups) because the speed of our (nearly all) players allows us to beat their man to create so many chances. Beckham does not fit this criteria at all.

You sound like Alan Green in disguise. What the f*** is so great about pace if you can't deliver the final ball. That's the problem with SWP and Lennon, although less so in respect of Lennon in recent matches. However, if we are going to play with a big target man, whether that be Heskey, Cole or Crouch, the crosses have to be accurate.

 

[simmo]

With the greatest of respect, I've no idea what Andy Townsend said because I was actually at the game last night. Were you?

The long passes created problems for the Belarus defence because they stretched them out. England certainly took more of a hold on the game, and looked more creative, once he was on the pitch. I'm not saying that he maybe doesn't overuse them, or that they are all perfect, but they certainly ARE useful. And quite frankly to suggest that 1 in 10 reach their target is complete bollocks.

I wouldn't disagree that England are a better side now; however it's a bit simplistic to put it down to speed. We had speed under Schteve McClaren but were still shit. It's about using it, and I agree that some of that is having wingers running directly at fullbacks. Beckham obviously doesn't have that, but he offers an option of something different. And quite frankly, last night plan A of the wingers running at the full backs wasn't really working; Lennon had a pretty shit game. So bringing on Beckham he didn't really have anything to lose.

As someone said earlier on when they showed a VT of Beckham's great passes very few if any, actually got to another England player, they just look great (because of his shape, his vision, he just sees things others don't, blah, blah)

Even if the ball reaches the intended target, by the time it takes the ball to be in the air, the winger to control the ball successfully and for the winger to then beat his full back the other defenders of the opposition have regrouped and got into place.

If you don't think 1 out of 10 work, name me the number of goals Englands have scored from one of his 40/50 yard passes (I obviously know we have from his crosses). But I am talking about his Hollywood balls from halfway inside our half. I cannot think of a single goal England have scored ever.

It is purely for show to make him look like he has a part in the England squad (to offer something different, I mean Gareth Barry could ping passes from that position that don't get to their intended target I am sure, but he doesn't he passes the ball 10 yards to one of his team mates)

Against Belarus when we have qualified it is fine and doesn't matter but it will do against an Italy, Germany, Brazil etc. etc. in the World Cup when it is all to play for and really tight and we keep giving the ball away, if he is brought on we have to change the way we as a team play to accomodate him i.e our pace will be reduced and he as our winger (I presume) won't be able to run past his player. What we actually need to do is bring on an even faster player (e.g Walcott/Lennon/SWP/Agbonlahor) to go past tiring legs in the last 20/30 minutes of a game

 

[simmo]

You sound like Alan Green in disguise. What the f*** is so great about pace if you can't deliver the final ball. That's the problem with SWP and Lennon, although less so in respect of Lennon in recent matches. However, if we are going to play with a big target man, whether that be Heskey, Cole or Crouch, the crosses have to be accurate.

Well Agbonlahor's pace got him in a position to deliver a perfect final ball for the first goal. Also SWP final ball for his goal seemed good enough to me. Lennon's pace won us the first penalty against Croatia too.

We have also scored 33? goals in ten games qualifying. So sometimes these speed mercahnts are getting it right.

It is our pace as a team that is causing us to create so many chances. Don't you realise this. We score goals for fun because our pace leads to us beating our man creating space which leads to so many oppurtunities, quite often for others esp. Rooney.

Why McClaren didn't get this right I can't answer but Cappello has (at the moment)

 

[Mellotron]

Beckham's hollywood crossfield balls will and have worked against teams the standard of Belarus (77th in FIFA rankings) and below. We all know this. We also all know that against a defence with any element of organisation and intelligence, these balls are useless.

Genuine question - When has Beckham ever risen to the occasion for England against a real quality side? I can't think of a single time. I'm sorry but you cannot be seen as GREAT if you have never put in a GREAT performance at the highest level.

Don't get me wrong, he should be on the plane to SA for what he does provide, but can we please get some perspective.

David Beckham - "Not as good as Paul Scholes." Ask any top European player who they are more in awe of.

 

[sten_super]

We're clearly not going to agree on this. Beckham, in as much as he raises the crowd and the players, and offers us a different option off the bench, should, IMO, go to the World Cup. I think those arguing against his impact quite honestly cannot have seen much of the qualifying campaign. Granted, he is not likely to have as big an impact against the best teams in the world, but I still think he can add something. The quality of balls into the box improved immeasurably when he came on. IF he can do that in a World Cup quarter/semi final, and create a chance for Rooney to score, then he's worth taking. I'd rather take him than someone like Wilshere, who will not even make it off the bench.

 

[Fourteenth Eye]

Genuine question - When has Beckham ever risen to the occasion for England against a real quality side? I can't think of a single time. I'm sorry but you cannot be seen as GREAT if you have never put in a GREAT performance at the highest level.

.

He was awsome in the win over argentina in the 02 world cup

 

[Mellotron]

We're clearly not going to agree on this. Beckham, in as much as he raises the crowd and the players, and offers us a different option off the bench, should, IMO, go to the World Cup. I think those arguing against his impact quite honestly cannot have seen much of the qualifying campaign. Granted, he is not likely to have as big an impact against the best teams in the world, but I still think he can add something. The quality of balls into the box improved immeasurably when he came on. IF he can do that in a World Cup quarter/semi final, and create a chance for Rooney to score, then he's worth taking. I'd rather take him than someone like Wilshere, who will not even make it off the bench.

I agree with all of that. My point is against those who idolise him to the extent that he is seen as possibly the greatest player of ALL TIME.

 

[sten_super]

I agree with all of that. My point is against those who idolise him to the extent that he is seen as possibly the greatest player of ALL TIME.

in that case I think we are fully agreed!

I don't think he is even the best English player of his generation, BUT he has achieved more for England than any other player of his generation, in terms of caps and (more importantly) his continued determined contribution on the pitch. He has not moaned when not picked, or retired from international football when dropped altogether, but has consistently turned up and done his best for England.

 

[Mellotron]

in that case I think we are fully agreed!

I don't think he is even the best English player of his generation, BUT he has achieved more for England than any other player of his generation, in terms of caps and (more importantly) his continued determined contribution on the pitch. He has not moaned when not picked, or retired from international football when dropped altogether, but has consistently turned up and done his best for England.

All true again. He seems like a genuinely nice bloke.

 

[drew]

Well Agbonlahor's pace got him in a position to deliver a perfect final ball for the first goal. Also SWP final ball for his goal seemed good enough to me. Lennon's pace won us the first penalty against Croatia too.

We have also scored 33? goals in ten games qualifying. So sometimes these speed mercahnts are getting it right.

It is our pace as a team that is causing us to create so many chances. Don't you realise this. We score goals for fun because our pace leads to us beating our man creating space which leads to so many oppurtunities, quite often for others esp. Rooney.

Why McClaren didn't get this right I can't answer but Cappello has (at the moment)

1. Agbonlahor was playing as a forward and not a winger.
2. How many crosses did SWP, a winger/wide midfielder, accurately deliver.
3. I would be interested to see how many of the 33 goals came from passes delivered by the wide players excluding Beckham. Just looking at soccernet.espn website as at 14th October, Rooney is top Euro scorer with 9 and top with assists at 5. Stephen Gerrard and Glen Johnson, neither being wingers, follow with 4 assists each and the next highest England player is Beckam with 3. The only wide man with any assists on the list is Lennon with 2, the same number as Heskey.

SWP played in 5 qualifiers in which we scored 17 goals, one of which was his, but he didn't assist more than one of the other 16 goals if any!

in that case I think we are fully agreed!

I don't think he is even the best English player of his generation, BUT he has achieved more for England than any other player of his generation, in terms of caps and (more importantly) his continued determined contribution on the pitch. He has not moaned when not picked, or retired from international football when dropped altogether, but has consistently turned up and done his best for England.

Out of interest, who do you consider to have been the best player over the last 15 years?

I agree with all of that. My point is against those who idolise him to the extent that he is seen as possibly the greatest player of ALL TIME.

Mellotron = Melodramatic.

I don't idolise Beckham but I think he is excellent for the squad as an impact player. He came on and that rejuvenated the crowd and the team. His quick corner set up SWPs goal whereas all corners before that had just been lumped into the box and dealt with one way or another by the keeper.

He is not the best thing in the England team, that accolade is for Rooney by a long margin. However, Beckham, baring injury, should be on the plane to SA. I would also be interested to know if, in 1998, you thought Hoddle should have taken Gascoigne to use as an impact sub?

 

[sten_super]

Out of interest, who do you consider to have been the best player over the last 15 years?

It's (fairly obviously) a tough one. There is a pre-disposition to select 'flair' players, which would put Paul Gascoigne (although he was at his height slightly more than 15 years ago, and I would argue is a different 'generation' to Beckham) and Paul Scholes at the top of the list. Narrowing down the list to those that I would define as truly world class, I came up with this list (and probably still have some glaring omissions).

Paul Gascoigne
Paul Scholes
Alan Shearer
Michael Owen
Gary Neville
David Beckham
Tony Adams

I came to football slightly too late to see Gazza in his pomp, so given that;

1. Paul Scholes
2. Alan Shearer
3. David Beckham

However I'm quite willing to accept that my selection is biased towards attackers, as these kinds of selections frequently are!

 

[glasfryn]

the game changed when Becks came on and got even better when Milner came on
both should be on THAT plane

 

[keaton]

Binfest

One the one hand Sun/Daily Mail reading idiots.

In the pro-Beckham Camp: Capello, Ancellotti and Steve Bruce,

Mmm, who do I think know's more about football?

 

[Mellotron]

Binfest

One the one hand Sun/Daily Mail reading idiots.

In the pro-Beckham Camp: Capello, Ancellotti and Steve Bruce,

Mmm, who do I think know's more about football?

Bizarre comment. I think I probably rate Beckham as much as Capello does. I haven't seen anyone else slagging Beckham off on here, really.

 

[Dave the OAP]

It always makes me laugh at people's reactions to Beckham....bottom line is this....if Beckham is so shit, unfit lacks pace etc etc, then why are one of the best Italian teams currently looking to sign him on again for another spell at their club and why did they try so damn hard to get him out of his contract at LAG?

Anyone who watched last night cannot fail to see that as in loads of games he plays these days, when he comes on he gives us something different...a gee up perhaps, more width perhaps, or just maybe he is still a tremendous footballer!

 

[Tooting Gull]

The thing is, you can rave about Lennon, Walcott and Wright-Phillips all day, but they are essentially the same player. So you don't take all three, pick the best two, and Beckham gives you something different.

 

[Simster]

The thing is, you can rave about Lennon, Walcott and Wright-Phillips all day, but they are essentially the same player. So you don't take all three, pick the best two, and Beckham gives you something different.

Yep. The ever improving Lennon and Walcott please.

 

[Mellotron]

Yep. The ever improving Lennon and Walcott please.

Agreed. SWP definitely has the least natural talent of those 3. Plus any more space for the small possibility of Ashley Young is good by me.

 

[beorhthelm]

In the pro-Beckham Camp: Capello, Ancellotti and Steve Bruce,

Mmm, who do I think know's more about football?

its not about "who knows more" its about the Beckham lovin with the media and some commentators. Really on reflection Backham being MoM for the performance he gave suggests the rest of the team were poor.

And Capello himself was surprised at it.

bottom line is this....if Beckham is so shit, unfit lacks pace etc etc, then why are one of the best Italian teams currently looking to sign him

you've watched Italian football? lack of pace really not an issue.

 

[Perry Milkins]

Yep. The ever improving Lennon and Walcott please.

What about Milner. I think he offers better delivery than those two with added strength not to be knocked off the ball. Probably better support to Cashley Cole and/ or Glum Johnson