[Drinking] Dark Star to leave Sussex

[PILTDOWN MAN]

That's the crux of it really, the brand.

Much the same as most of the Beer brands.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

Who sold it to FST blame them don't blame Asahi they bought Fullers.

I grew up with King and Barnes, I knew Bill King, he never wanted to sell but the Barnes family did. I was devastated when it went. But out of that you got Hepworths and King & co. Both started their breweries in Horsham.

To be clear- it was shit when it got sold and is even shitter now the entire operation is being moved.

At least Burning Sky is something good to come from it and hopefully there will be others as you say.

Much the same as most of the Beer brands.

Whataboutery doesn't make it right.

 

[Marshy]

Soon only Weatherspoons will be around....

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Not local produce but a proper well supported local business - local local brewers, suppliers, customers and a product made with care by people passionate about giving customers what they want. If you went to either of these sites before tha takeover you'd get it. Not just selling out to a big site mass producing iffy pints of Hophead and generic IPAs that are far-removed from the beer so many were passionate about in the 00's.

It is almost insulting to say it became a Nomadic brewery when it moved to Ansty.

Slightly relieved i never got round to purchasing one of those 'Straight outta Sussex' t shirts they were selling.

A dark day.

I did go to Ansty as I owned pubs in the area at the time. I also went to Partridge Green. I know what passion was but as I stated it wasn't Asahi who sold the business was it?

FST had previously bought Gales and shut everything down. It's what breweries do. I would have done things slightly differently. It simply comes down to assets and Asahi owns the site at Greenwich, if they owned PG and leased Greenwich the likelihood would be Meantime moving the other way.

 

[Lethargic]

If it had stayed in Brighton you'd have a point but it moved around Sussex why? I haven't got an issue with a brewery moving all that's happening is it's being moved again. That is the point I made it has not had roots since Brighton. Hepworth's moved from Foundary Lane Horsham to its current site.

The sites at Ansty and Partridge Green are hardly steeped in brewing history are they?

To call it local produce is misleading as the only thing local was the water!

The key difference is when it moved around Sussex it was still only Dark Star they were not sharing anything with another entity, their tag line was Brewed in the Heart of Sussex, the move to Greenwich is neither Sussex nor Dark Star. I understand there are commercial considerations but moving from Partridge Green to Greenwich as a cost saving , why not move Greenwich to Partridge Green, I am sure rent will be cheap outside of London?

Whatever the commercial considerations, looking at the responses of the announcement on social media this has not gone down well with Dark Star supporters and I suspect will only end in one way. The history of the breweries moving/merging does not bode well for Dark Star, so its Kissingate and Firebird for me from now on, a sad day.

 

[Notters]

Apparently they will still be brewing the same beers down at Burton, I'm sure that they will taste the same as well, just like the Hall and Woodhouse versions of K&B Beers.

Oh, they don''t do them any more do they?

A bit like Greene King when they took over Hardys and Hansons?

Genuinely gutted about this. It's so characteristic of the Lake District and so many pubs that I've stayed in.
Wasn't long ago you could get Cumberland Ale (branded as taste the difference Lakeland Ale) in Sainsbury's.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Whataboutery doesn't make it right.

But that's what's happened since beer was first brewed. if you look at history of breweries they have always bought other brewed and slowly cherry picked.

I think where beer is concerned, and I mean ales, supporters of those are always worried that they will disappear or be bought. There is in fact very few ales of distinction that remain and continue to be brewed in their original brewery.

If Dark Star had still been independent there is no way Asahi would have ever been interested in buying it. They traditionally look for larger breweries but then they look to keep the identity and location of them. That's why I stated the purchase of Carlton around the same time 10 Billion for them 250 million for Fullers. It shows that Fullers wasn't really on the cards at the time but FST approached Asahi. To be honest the only thing that probably stopped Asahi selling off Dark Star to become independent again was Hophead which the company sees as a great prospect to get countrywide exposure. Until the purchase of Fullers Asahi had never had a real ale brewery and it wasn't really being actively sort.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

The key difference is when it moved around Sussex it was still only Dark Star they were not sharing anything with another entity, their tag line was Brewed in the Heart of Sussex, the move to Greenwich is neither Sussex nor Dark Star. I understand there are commercial considerations but moving from Partridge Green to Greenwich as a cost saving , why not move Greenwich to Partridge Green, I am sure rent will be cheap outside of London?

Whatever the commercial considerations, looking at the responses of the announcement on social media this has not gone down well with Dark Star supporters and I suspect will only end in one way. The history of the breweries moving/merging does not bode well for Dark Star, so its Kissingate and Firebird for me from now on, a sad day.

Site in London is owned.

A little perspective the sales of all Dark Star are less than 0.5% of the sales of all Asahi products in the UK. The FST contract is about 3% of sales in the UK. Peroni accounts for around 70% of profits in the UK.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

The key difference is when it moved around Sussex it was still only Dark Star they were not sharing anything with another entity, their tag line was Brewed in the Heart of Sussex, the move to Greenwich is neither Sussex nor Dark Star. I understand there are commercial considerations but moving from Partridge Green to Greenwich as a cost saving , why not move Greenwich to Partridge Green, I am sure rent will be cheap outside of London?

Whatever the commercial considerations, looking at the responses of the announcement on social media this has not gone down well with Dark Star supporters and I suspect will only end in one way. The history of the breweries moving/merging does not bode well for Dark Star, so its Kissingate and Firebird for me from now on, a sad day.

It is sad but the original owners are to blame.

As you post you'll just go for another local brew that takes your fancy much like those on social media. You, me everyone may not like it but it's a big business decision. Much like all these "craft" breweries they eventually either get bought or struggle on in their own little way. The truth is a few supporters (I don't wish to sound condescending) moaning on social media will be unlikely to be heard at all by the management until I mention it at the next meeting!

The current climate doesn't bode well for the smaller breweries and the ongoing decline in real ale sales is a worry to those of us that enjoy proper beer.

 

[Blue3]

Interesting how you define Dark Star's life cycle.

As has been indicated on this thread, people are quick to criticise, point the finger at big companies. In this age where many get their information from shit sources then quote these as fact. I could bore the arse off everyone about this a I was involved from the early stages of what was announced this week. As well as being a Quality Manager for Asahi I'm also a representative who sits regularly with the CEO of Asahi UK.

To say it's a closure is wrong, the roots of the brewery started, as many know in Brighton but this began to be lost once it broke free of the city walls, when it went to Ansty and again when it moved to Partridge Green. It had become a nomadic brewery well before it was bought by Fullers Smith & Turner, I use the full name of the then brewer for a reason.

FST approached Asahi asking them to buy the brewing arm, allowing them to concentrate on their pubs and hotels. Asahi bought Fullers (not FST) for 250m, actually this was paid for in cash that had been some of the profits from Asahi UK the previous year. A few months later Asahi (Japan) bought Carlton & United Brewery in Australia for about 10 Billion. Therefore a little perspective to how big a deal the Fullers deal was.

Part of the agreement was that FST signed a 5 year contract to use Asahi for their beers and distribution. That is as far as the relationship goes with FST and Asahi. FST are not obliged to have any Dark Star products in their estate, but due to its popularity it is a mainstay currently. In truth the contract with FST is nowhere near the top supply contracts within the UK for Asahi.

For a number of years Hophead has been brewed at Chiswick, this allowed Dark Star to concentrate on the seasonal output.

At Chiswick the recipes are adhered to, the water is Burtonised (but remember the moving of the Dark Star Brewery this would have had to be done anyway). Incidentally the yeast cultures held at Chiswick, Gales, Fullers and Dark Star are all kept separately and will never be used together to stop cross contamination.

Currently the brewing output at Dark Star is currently only at 15%, mainly due to the current financial situation we all find ourselves in. Meantime has a capacity of 40% but also the ability to expand in the future with the purchasing of the adjacent building that was being used by the British Museum. Moving the Dark Star Brewery to the Meantime site makes financial sense. The ongoing cost of the Partridge Green site was too high considering the output. This along with the fact the site was leased, with the lease time limited.

The 2 brews will be distinctly separate, with their own identities but brewed within the same building. The brew house is one of the most modern in the country and will in fact help the Dark Star brews to give better quality products.

This move in fact ensures that the Dark Star beers survive and indeed it will focus on the brand. IMO Hophead will expand massively countrywide.

The important thing is to remember where it originates from, this was though somewhat diluted well before it was bought.

Thank you for that very well constructed response which you clearly are well positioned to provide.

I am old enough to remember Gales Brewery they made HSB an old fashioned bitter which was very popular in these parts, Gales was purchased by Fullers who totally ruined HSB, another more close to home was king and Barns who also went in similar ways now I am not comparing Fullers to Ashanti but the point is small local breweries products are so important to there locality the French understand this they call it the Terrior we have no single word in the English language to translate but it means the land where it sits it’s degree of sun it’s temperatures the amount of rain soils acidity all make up Terrior, Dark Star, Gales and their new owners clearly haven’t understood Terrior as neither Hophead or HSB has been as good as it was originally, I will be amazed if the new move doesn’t have the same effect

 

[beorhthelm]

It is sad but the original owners are to blame.

As you post you'll just go for another local brew that takes your fancy much like those on social media. You, me everyone may not like it but it's a big business decision. Much like all these "craft" breweries they eventually either get bought or struggle on in their own little way. The truth is a few supporters (I don't wish to sound condescending) moaning on social media will be unlikely to be heard at all by the management until I mention it at the next meeting!

The current climate doesn't bode well for the smaller breweries and the ongoing decline in real ale sales is a worry to those of us that enjoy proper beer.

was going to say something to that effect. once the original owner sells, there's not much can be done to keep any business tied to its origins.

get the impression theres a size ceiling for brewers, if they want to go beyond they have to sell now to get the scale. though i'm always surprised how far and wide Harvey's pops up and they haven't.

 

[wuntbedruv]

Getting

Apparently they will still be brewing the same beers down at Burton, I'm sure that they will taste the same as well, just like the Hall and Woodhouse versions of K&B Beers.

Oh, they don''t do them any more do they?

Do Hall and Woodhouse still Brew K&B Sussex Bitter. In Hampshire/ Dorset?

 

[Lankyseagull]

Gales Festival Mild was a favourite of mine back in the day. Lunch in the Basketmakers before sitting in the rain at Withdean. Sadly, Fullers dropped Festival immediately after the takeover. They brought it back for a period a few years later, but it was not a patch on the Gales original. Gone, but not forgotten.

 

[BLOCK F]

Ale is a subject and product close to many people’s hearts, including mine, having spent my career in the brewing and pub industry.
Whatever one’s views on takeovers and ‘big business’, as Piltdown Man says, just take a look at the history of pubs and brewing. Different breweries, beers and pubs have come and gone throughout the ages, but the fact remains that there is now a huge range of ales, national and local available throughout the U.K. The choice we now have in the average town would have been unimaginable back in the late sixties and seventies when the whole scene was dominated by the likes of Bass, Allied, Watneys, Courages and Whitbread.
Drink up whatever takes your fancy, there is plenty to enjoy.

 

[jakarta]

Getting

Do Hall and Woodhouse still Brew K&B Sussex Bitter. In Hampshire/ Dorset?

No they don't brew any of the K&B Beers that they could do. Mostly because they they tasted shite when they tried...

 

[Guinness Boy]

Gales Festival Mild was a favourite of mine back in the day. Lunch in the Basketmakers before sitting in the rain at Withdean. Sadly, Fullers dropped Festival immediately after the takeover. They brought it back for a period a few years later, but it was not a patch on the Gales original. Gone, but not forgotten.

Gales HSB, when still made by Gales was outstanding. The first Real Ale I liked.

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Ale is a subject and product close to many people’s hearts, including mine, having spent my career in the brewing and pub industry.
Whatever one’s views on takeovers and ‘big business’, as Piltdown Man says, just take a look at the history of pubs and brewing. Different breweries, beers and pubs have come and gone throughout the ages, but the fact remains that there is now a huge range of ales, national and local available throughout the U.K. The choice we now have in the average town would have been unimaginable back in the late sixties and seventies when the whole scene was dominated by the likes of Bass, Allied, Watneys, Courages and Whitbread.
Drink up whatever takes your fancy, there is plenty to enjoy.

I was in Lyme Regis a couple of weeks ago and one of the shames, to me, is that nowadays driving past pubs you haven't a clue what they sell, you used to see a Watneys or a FST pub, now nothing. I ended drinking in a Palmers, good old fashioned brewery, I think, and even they didn't bother to put their brewery name on the front!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

To call it local produce is misleading as the only thing local was the water!

So 90-95% of Hophead is local then.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

was going to say something to that effect. once the original owner sells, there's not much can be done to keep any business tied to its origins.

get the impression theres a size ceiling for brewers, if they want to go beyond they have to sell now to get the scale. though i'm always surprised how far and wide Harvey's pops up and they haven't.

Harveys are happy to remain the size they are.

I was in Lyme Regis a couple of weeks ago and one of the shames, to me, is that nowadays driving past pubs you haven't a clue what they sell, you used to see a Watneys or a FST pub, now nothing. I ended drinking in a Palmers, good old fashioned brewery, I think, and even they didn't bother to put their brewery name on the front!

FST houses in the main still have full Fullers branding. Some of the back Street local pubs in and around Portsmouth are de-branded.

 

[vegster]

No they don't brew any of the K&B Beers that they could do. Mostly because they they tasted shite when they tried...

Sounds like they got the old King and Barnes spot on then ?