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D Day 6/6/04 - NSC Remembers
- Thread starter Uncle Spielberg
- Start date
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #22
Can't agree on this one M'Lord.
aftershavedave
Well-known member
Staly said:
try reading "naples 44" by norman lewis. he was an itelligence officer in italy and it's a very good read by one of our finest travel writers.
Dandyman
In London village.
SM BHAFC said:
I can recognise that. My great-uncle was killed fighting (as a volunteer) with the South African Infantry on the Somme in March 1918 and is remembered at the Poziers CWG site. A lion lead by donkeys.
The comfort for the relatives of the dead of WW2 is that they died defeating the greatest evil the modern world has seen. The soldiers of WW1 although no less brave or self-sacrificing sadly died for little more than the vanity and greed of their rulers.
Cadiz Seagull
Grey bearded old man
They shall grow not old
As we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them.
We will remember them.
As we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them.
We will remember them.
Hungry Joe.
New member
Dandyman said:
Spot on.
Staly
Well-known member
My grandfather fought in World War 1, again with the Royal Sussex, 1915-1918. He spent the rest of his life trying to forget it, and had nightmares for the rest of his life. He didn't regard himself as a hero, but as the victim of a massive confidence trick.
He'd very rarely talk about it, but did once describe to me an occasion where he had to gather up the remnants of his best friend and put them in a sandbag for burial.
I've got a photo of him in the crowd at Brighton vs Southend (1921?). He still looks shellshocked.
I think the best way to remember the First World War is as a massive, pointless waste.
He'd very rarely talk about it, but did once describe to me an occasion where he had to gather up the remnants of his best friend and put them in a sandbag for burial.
I've got a photo of him in the crowd at Brighton vs Southend (1921?). He still looks shellshocked.
I think the best way to remember the First World War is as a massive, pointless waste.
Northstander
Well-known member
- Oct 13, 2003
- 14,031
This one is a famous Lancing Family
Victor Henry Grover
Private 10253 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards
Killed in Action on Thursday 29th October 1914
Commemorated on Ypres Memorial, Menin Gate, Ieper, Belgium, Panel 11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Small son turned big, now that you're grown
And in a real war,
And set to face it all alone,
I'm wild to run and guard my own
Same as I did before.
You'd laugh at that; but keep your fun
Till fighting's through, and then
Hurry off back to where there's one
All of a fuss to hear her son
Say 'Dear old fool' again.'
Victor Grover was born on the 5th of May 1896, and baptised on July 5th, the eldest child of Frederick Grover, a labourer, and his wife Ada. The Grover family were one of the longstanding Lancing families - they can be easily traced back to the marriage of Samuel Grover and Ann Nutter in Lancing on the 11th October 1774, although the condition of the Parish Registers makes it difficult to confirm the details before this. The 1901 Census shows Victor, aged 4 years living with his parents and younger sister Doris, aged 3, at Blacksmith House, The Street, North Lancing; Frederick Grover was working as a market garden labourer, as had many generations of Grover men before him. The census also shows that Ada Grover was not local, but had been born in Shambrook, Bedfordshire. At the outbreak of war, and through into the 1920s the family were living at 10 Downview Terrace, Lancing.
Victor enlisted into the Coldstream Guards at Worthing on July 24th 1913, adding a year on to his true age and stating that he was eighteen years and two months old. Another Lancing boy, Reginald Lisher has a service number consecutive with Victor's, and I felt it was likely that they had enlisted together, but the records now show that Reginald had joined five days previously in Brighton - perhaps his decision influenced Victor into accompanying him on life's great adventure, but sadly, one that would see them both dead before the end of 1914. A year later the Coldstream Guards, as part of 1st [Guards] Brigade, 1st Division, were among the first British soldiers to enter France, and his battalion arrived there on the 14th August 1914 - these were the men of the British Expeditionary Force who were to become known as the 'Old Contemptibles.' The following explanation of the term comes from the web site The Long, Long Trail:
'The 'Old Contemptibles' was the title proudly adopted by the men of the British Expeditionary Force who saw service abroad before 22nd November 1914. They were the originals, and most were regular soldiers or reservists. They derive their honourable title from the famous 'Order of the Day' given by Kaiser Wilhelm II at his headquarters in Aix-la-Chapelle on the 19th August 1914:- 'It is my Royal and Imperial Command that you concentrate your energies, for the immediate present upon one single purpose, and that is that you address all your skill and the valour of my soldiers to exterminate first the treacherous English; walk over General French's contemptible little Army.' The precise translation has been debated endlessly, but the irony of the choice of title is clear.'
It is likely that Victor Grover saw much action and suffered much hardship during those first few months of the war as the battalion, as part of the BEF, advanced, fought, retreated, marched endlessly and advanced again. His friend Reg Lisher had died early on in September 1914, and the two eighteen year olds must have been friends from childhood. On the 27th October 1914 the battalion arrived at Gheluvelt, South East of Ypres - the Battalion War Diary of the 1st Coldstream Guards is brief and lacks detail, but the entry for the day of Victor Grover's death is as follows:
October 29th 1914 - GHELUVELT
'An attack by the Germans of which notice was received was beaten off at 5.30am in dense mist but was successful further S. at crossroads E.S.E. of GHELUVELT: the result being that the battalion trenches were almost immediately afterwards attacked from the right rear. A retirement appears to have been ordered and a small portion of the battalion re-formed covering a battery of Royal Field Artillery. At night the battalion was withdrawn and bivouacked in woods W. of GHELUVELT in Brigade Reserve.
The diary is unclear on the number of casualties, with no mention of NCOs and other ranks, but among the dead was the Commanding Officer, Major The Hon. Leslie D'Henin Hamilton MVO. However an official history of the battalion is more explicit:
'On August Bank Holiday 1914, Great Britain declared war on Germany and the Coldstream were immediately involved. The 1st Battalion, as part of 1st Guards Brigade, and the 2nd and 3rd Battalions, as part of 4th Guards Brigade, all moved to France immediately. The Regiment suffered heavily throughout the War; on 29th October 1914, at Gheluvelt, for example, the 1st Battalion suffered such casualties that it had no officers left and only 80 men. Four days later, after reinforcement, it had once more been reduced to no officers and 120 men only
Victor Henry Grover
Private 10253 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards
Killed in Action on Thursday 29th October 1914
Commemorated on Ypres Memorial, Menin Gate, Ieper, Belgium, Panel 11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Small son turned big, now that you're grown
And in a real war,
And set to face it all alone,
I'm wild to run and guard my own
Same as I did before.
You'd laugh at that; but keep your fun
Till fighting's through, and then
Hurry off back to where there's one
All of a fuss to hear her son
Say 'Dear old fool' again.'
Victor Grover was born on the 5th of May 1896, and baptised on July 5th, the eldest child of Frederick Grover, a labourer, and his wife Ada. The Grover family were one of the longstanding Lancing families - they can be easily traced back to the marriage of Samuel Grover and Ann Nutter in Lancing on the 11th October 1774, although the condition of the Parish Registers makes it difficult to confirm the details before this. The 1901 Census shows Victor, aged 4 years living with his parents and younger sister Doris, aged 3, at Blacksmith House, The Street, North Lancing; Frederick Grover was working as a market garden labourer, as had many generations of Grover men before him. The census also shows that Ada Grover was not local, but had been born in Shambrook, Bedfordshire. At the outbreak of war, and through into the 1920s the family were living at 10 Downview Terrace, Lancing.
Victor enlisted into the Coldstream Guards at Worthing on July 24th 1913, adding a year on to his true age and stating that he was eighteen years and two months old. Another Lancing boy, Reginald Lisher has a service number consecutive with Victor's, and I felt it was likely that they had enlisted together, but the records now show that Reginald had joined five days previously in Brighton - perhaps his decision influenced Victor into accompanying him on life's great adventure, but sadly, one that would see them both dead before the end of 1914. A year later the Coldstream Guards, as part of 1st [Guards] Brigade, 1st Division, were among the first British soldiers to enter France, and his battalion arrived there on the 14th August 1914 - these were the men of the British Expeditionary Force who were to become known as the 'Old Contemptibles.' The following explanation of the term comes from the web site The Long, Long Trail:
'The 'Old Contemptibles' was the title proudly adopted by the men of the British Expeditionary Force who saw service abroad before 22nd November 1914. They were the originals, and most were regular soldiers or reservists. They derive their honourable title from the famous 'Order of the Day' given by Kaiser Wilhelm II at his headquarters in Aix-la-Chapelle on the 19th August 1914:- 'It is my Royal and Imperial Command that you concentrate your energies, for the immediate present upon one single purpose, and that is that you address all your skill and the valour of my soldiers to exterminate first the treacherous English; walk over General French's contemptible little Army.' The precise translation has been debated endlessly, but the irony of the choice of title is clear.'
It is likely that Victor Grover saw much action and suffered much hardship during those first few months of the war as the battalion, as part of the BEF, advanced, fought, retreated, marched endlessly and advanced again. His friend Reg Lisher had died early on in September 1914, and the two eighteen year olds must have been friends from childhood. On the 27th October 1914 the battalion arrived at Gheluvelt, South East of Ypres - the Battalion War Diary of the 1st Coldstream Guards is brief and lacks detail, but the entry for the day of Victor Grover's death is as follows:
October 29th 1914 - GHELUVELT
'An attack by the Germans of which notice was received was beaten off at 5.30am in dense mist but was successful further S. at crossroads E.S.E. of GHELUVELT: the result being that the battalion trenches were almost immediately afterwards attacked from the right rear. A retirement appears to have been ordered and a small portion of the battalion re-formed covering a battery of Royal Field Artillery. At night the battalion was withdrawn and bivouacked in woods W. of GHELUVELT in Brigade Reserve.
The diary is unclear on the number of casualties, with no mention of NCOs and other ranks, but among the dead was the Commanding Officer, Major The Hon. Leslie D'Henin Hamilton MVO. However an official history of the battalion is more explicit:
'On August Bank Holiday 1914, Great Britain declared war on Germany and the Coldstream were immediately involved. The 1st Battalion, as part of 1st Guards Brigade, and the 2nd and 3rd Battalions, as part of 4th Guards Brigade, all moved to France immediately. The Regiment suffered heavily throughout the War; on 29th October 1914, at Gheluvelt, for example, the 1st Battalion suffered such casualties that it had no officers left and only 80 men. Four days later, after reinforcement, it had once more been reduced to no officers and 120 men only
Lord Bracknell
On fire
I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, Gareth - I just think it's oversimplistic to see things in terms of "heroism" and "sacrifice".Gareth Glover said:
"Lest We Forget" is a very important message. And we shouldn't forget heroism and sacrifice. I just fear that the way the commemorations are developing is encouraging us to forget other aspects of war - not the least of which is that many deaths arise in less than noble circumstances.
Remember the thousands who died on the Normandy beaches because they were put on to open boats twelve miles from land when the bombardment of gun emplacements on the beach head had failed to neutralise the German defences.
Those young men were victims, more than heroes in my mind. If they are not remembered as victims, then our generation will too easily forget that war is ALWAYS best avoided.
Last edited:
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #31
Agreed but sometimes war is inevitable M'Lord.
I can only imaging what it was like on those beaches in 1944 with bullets ripping peoples bodies apart.
Moaning about Albion's midfield seems rather pathetic.
I can only imaging what it was like on those beaches in 1944 with bullets ripping peoples bodies apart.
Moaning about Albion's midfield seems rather pathetic.
Staly
Well-known member
I don't know- my grandad spent his life moaning about Albion's midfield. He seemed to think it was quite important in the grand scheme of things...
Hungry Joe.
New member
Staly said:
In the words of David St.Hubbins in Spinal Tap "too much f***ing perspective".
Lord Bracknell
On fire
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Wilfred Owen
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Wilfred Owen
SM BHAFC
New member
Lord Bracknell the whole point of this is about remebering the sacrifice people made and realising that war is always a last resort is part of that but to remember them as victims is not something I will do they are all heroes to me however thet died in fighting or not.
I am with GG I can not comprhend what it must have been like and hope I never will have to, as for the mistakes that were made they are tragic, but hundreds of troops were killed in a practice run on British beaches down in Devon weeks before the landings, a military operation of this size is always going to have accidents those that died in them are no less heroes to me.
I am with GG I can not comprhend what it must have been like and hope I never will have to, as for the mistakes that were made they are tragic, but hundreds of troops were killed in a practice run on British beaches down in Devon weeks before the landings, a military operation of this size is always going to have accidents those that died in them are no less heroes to me.
Hungry Joe.
New member
Lord Bracknell said:
They play a tape of Wilfred reading that at the In Flanders Fields Museum @ Ypres whilst you look at these original WWI gas masks and they blow yellow smoke up. Chilling.
Hungry Joe.
New member
I think Lord B's making a valid point that is being a little misunderstood; ideas of heroism are what lead many a young man to his death, especially in WWI when the idea of King & Country was much more powerful than it is today. That is what Wilfred Owen was talking about. Herosim or tragic accidents, they are all the folly of war.
Staly
Well-known member
I used to work as an Archivist, and one of the sets of records I looked after was that of the Manchester Regiment. This was full of collections of the personal papers of soldiers from both world wars deposited by relatives. Looking at small collections of papers that are all that is left of a very short life brings it home even more than the rows of graves.
A local example for you:
http://www.royalsussex.org.uk/RSLHG_Pte_R_E_Allen.htm
A local example for you:
http://www.royalsussex.org.uk/RSLHG_Pte_R_E_Allen.htm
Lord Bracknell
On fire
I've been doing some family history research over the past few months and unearthed the story of my great uncle, Alfred Harrison.SM BHAFC said:
Born in 1894, he joined the Royal Navy as a Stoker at the beginning of the First World War. Three months into the war, he was serving on HMS Bulwark.
On 26 November 1914, the ship, a 15,000-ton battleship, was moored at Kethole Reach near Sheerness, on the Medway. It was while the men on board were having breakfast that the ship suddenly exploded into smithereens. When the smoke cleared the ship had gone. The explosion was heard as far away as Whitstable to the south and Southend in Essex, where it shook the pier. There was considerable damage in Sheerness. More than 700 men on the ship were killed. Winston Churchill reported the disaster to the House of Commons later that day, reporting that only 12 had survived. Bulwark was almost certainly destroyed while ammunition was being loaded: there may have been some mishandling of the powder charges. Most of the bodies were never recovered.
I'll view Alfred Harrison as a victim. The family still has the one medal he was awarded for his service. I have no problem if SM BHAFC sees him as a hero.