[Other Sport] Cycling geeks

[Tyrone Biggums]

Before this race Tom D was clear favourite to win for me. Could see Froome wasn't quite right and couldn't see where else the challenge would come from. I certainly didn't see this coming from Yates!

Now it really does look like Yates' to lose. Even if Tom D puts 2 mins into Yates in the ITT, which I don't think he will now, we still have three more mountain stages in a row to go. Yates would have to blow up big time or have some seriously bad luck.

Yates has set the race alight with hard riding and making the bold moves.

Nothing worse than someone who can time trial getting sucked along on others wheels never attacking other riders on the hard stages and just riding an overall negative neutralising style of race.

Yates has been a pure joy to watch for a young rider of his age, to get beaten by a boring negative style of riding doesn't seem right.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Interesting point about the TT, and it would seem a dreadfully unfair way to win it. But, is the flip side of the TT being where it is lighting up the race? Would Yates be quite as attacking if it wasn't for banking seconds that he knows he is likely to lose in the TT? Would this be a bit less exciting without the TT looming in the distance? I don't know, but it does seem that this race is as exciting as it is because a TT is to come, not in spite of it.

Mountain attacks really light the race up and provide the theatre and drama that make a great race, not solo rides against the clock.

If they want to have TT in races make them short ones so the likes of Doumalin don't win Grand Tours by riding in a positive fashion for one day in 3 weeks of racing

 

[Stat Brother]

Mountain attacks really light the race up and provide the theatre and drama that make a great race, not solo rides against the clock.

If they want to have TT in races make them short ones so the likes of Doumalin don't win Grand Tours by riding in a positive fashion for one day in 3 weeks of racing

You are being very dismissive of a TT rider just 40 seconds behind a mountain goat who has given everything he can to drop him, but can't.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Mountain attacks really light the race up and provide the theatre and drama that make a great race, not solo rides against the clock.

If they want to have TT in races make them short ones so the likes of Doumalin don't win Grand Tours by riding in a positive fashion for one day in 3 weeks of racing

I agree with you, but what I'm trying to say is has the threat of the TT made the mountain attacks more frequent? With the prospect of the TT Froome still felt he had a chance on Saturday and went for it, others have too. Rather than consolidate, Yates continues to attack as the race leader – tactically because he knows he will lose time on the longish TT. I do agree with you, it would seem a travesty to have a rider in the form and attacking intent of Yates, going after it day after day only to lose because someone has shadowed him all race then nicks on a time trial. Just can't help but feel this race has been so exciting for that reason.

 

[pb21]

You are being very dismissive of a TT rider just 40 seconds behind a mountain goat who has given everything he can to drop him, but can't.

Well he is a over 2 minutes back, but yes still agree with you. Whilst it may not be immediately exciting you still have to appreciate Dumoulin's performance to date; and I personally do find it exciting, maybe not in the same way wrestling may be described as exciting, bit exciting nonetheless.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You are being very dismissive of a TT rider just 40 seconds behind a mountain goat who has given everything he can to drop him, but can't.

2mins 11 secs now

Agree though, Doumalin has shown a lot of class so far in this race, not like any of the other climbers have got ahead of him.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You are being very dismissive of a TT rider just 40 seconds behind a mountain goat who has given everything he can to drop him, but can't.

I am. He's brought nothing to the race riding the negative way he does.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I agree with you, but what I'm trying to say is has the threat of the TT made the mountain attacks more frequent? With the prospect of the TT Froome still felt he had a chance on Saturday and went for it, others have too. Rather than consolidate, Yates continues to attack as the race leader – tactically because he knows he will lose time on the longish TT. I do agree with you, it would seem a travesty to have a rider in the form and attacking intent of Yates, going after it day after day only to lose because someone has shadowed him all race then nicks on a time trial. Just can't help but feel this race has been so exciting for that reason.

Mountain attacks would still occur without a TT on the program.

That's because the better time trialers would then be forced to do something positive in mountain stages because they'll never win if they don't.

The mountain stages are the most epic and the most popular. That's because that's what the majority of cycling fans like.

 

[pb21]

I am. He's brought nothing to the race riding the negative way he does.

I think Dumoulin has bought loads to the race, he has been burying himself, as has Yates. The only riders who can be described as riding negatively, at least yesterday were the mountain goats Pozzovivo and Carapaz.

Races aren't decided by who the public thinks is subjectively the more exciting, but on the road by who is the strongest and most wily. Plus its not over yet and Yates may pay for his exuberant, but necessary, attacking off the front.

There is also nothing, either in words or history, that says GTs should favour mountaion goats over TTists, there probably should be a balance and there is.

 

[Stat Brother]

I am. He's brought nothing to the race riding the negative way he does.

In the 'good old days' Yates would have blasted TD off the mountain with 3 super human attacks up one mountain pass.
I don't suppose at that time you were saying 'what's the point of having a 3 week race when it's all settled on the first mountain?'.


Oh and the 40 sec comment was per pass, not the race overall.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

In the 'good old days' Yates would have blasted TD off the mountain with 3 super human attacks up one mountain pass.
I don't suppose at that time you were saying 'what's the point of having a 3 week race when it's all settled on the first mountain?'.


Oh and the 40 sec comment was per pass, not the race overall.

Froome still blasted his opponents off the mountain with massive mountain attacks. That's what made his victories exciting.

Not the fact he could also time trial.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I think Dumoulin has bought loads to the race, he has been burying himself, as has Yates. The only riders who can be described as riding negatively, at least yesterday were the mountain goats Pozzovivo and Carapaz.

Races aren't decided by who the public thinks is subjectively the more exciting, but on the road by who is the strongest and most wily. Plus its not over yet and Yates may pay for his exuberant, but necessary, attacking off the front.

There is also nothing, either in words or history, that says GTs should favour mountaion goats over TTists, there probably should be a balance and there is.

Riders who also bury themselves every day are domestiques.

I don't turn on the TV to watch the domestiques. I also don't turn on to watch boring riders. I would never turn on the TV to watch Doumalin ride up a mountain. He reminds me of that other bore Cadel Evans who only won big races when he finally stopped following wheels and attacked.

Exciting races are exactly what the sport needs and why people tune in.

Doumalin is the equivalent of a 0-0 draw.

 

[Stat Brother]

Froome still blasted his opponents off the mountain with massive mountain attacks. That's what made his victories exciting.

Not the fact he could also time trial.

I just can't shake the feeling that previously we have discussed 'the Sky Train is taking all the excitement out of Le Tour', apologies if I'm wrong.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I just can't shake the feeling that previously we have discussed 'the Sky Train is taking all the excitement out of Le Tour', apologies if I'm wrong.

It was. But that was because their 2nd and 3rd guys were capable at the time of finishing on the podium with Froome but would just roll along and hold back. It's why Richie Porte moved on to another team.

The other teams and riders did try though. Just didn't have the fire power of Sky.

Froome's team was simply bankrolled to the hilt and had some seriously talented supporting riders.

 

[pb21]

Riders who also bury themselves every day are domestiques.

I don't turn on the TV to watch the domestiques. I also don't turn on to watch boring riders. I would never turn on the TV to watch Doumalin ride up a mountain. He reminds me of that other bore Cadel Evans who only won big races when he finally stopped following wheels and attacked.

Exciting races are exactly what the sport needs and why people tune in.

Doumalin is the equivalent of a 0-0 draw.

Did you watch yesterday's stage?! If you don't think Yates and Dumoulin buried themselves then I'm not sure what would be! Yates has said it was the hardest 15 km he has ridden.

With Evans you have highlighted the issue. Evans didn't win before he become more attack minded, because he wasn't the strongest with that outlook. He didn't start to win because he rode in a way that people though was more exciting, but because he was stronger and more wily by doing.

I can see why a 0-0 draw might be considered as boring, but it doesn't paint the whole picture. If you are watching all 22 players giving there all and at the limits of what humans are capable, then that should be a fascinating watch?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Did you watch yesterday's stage?! If you don't think Yates and Dumoulin buried themselves then I'm not sure what would be! Yates has said it was the hardest 15 km he has ridden.

With Evans you have highlighted the issue. Evans didn't win before he become more attack minded, because he wasn't the strongest with that outlook. He didn't start to win because he rode in a way that people though was more exciting, but because he was stronger and more wily by doing.

I can see why a 0-0 draw might be considered as boring, but it doesn't pain the whole picture. If you are watching all 22 players giving there all and at the limits of what humans are capable, then that should be a fascinating watch?

Yates was attacking, Doumalin was simply hanging on. Like he always does. That's boring.

All they were talking about was the time the most attacking and positive rider needs to hold out one of the dullest on the TT day.

Rather than saying Doumalin will need to attack in the mountains etc it's all about the TT. All about hanging on rather than attacking.

 

[Stat Brother]

I could almost get with this argument if the TT was the penultimate stage and TD was hiding (which he isn't) till then.
But it isn't, I doubt even when the organisers came up with this route they dared to dream the final week would be set up like this.

Leader takes 2+ minutes into TT.
Loses 3 minutes in said TT to specialist.
Then has 3 more mountain stages to claim back the jersey, with more time bonuses along the way.

Potentially Yates could win (or lose) this Giro by 20 seconds.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I could almost get with this argument if the TT was the penultimate stage and TD was hiding (which he isn't) till then.
But it isn't, I doubt even when the organisers came up with this route they dared to dream the final week would be set up like this.

Leader takes 2+ minutes into TT.
Loses 3 minutes in said TT to specialist.
Then has 3 more mountain stages to claim back the jersey, with more time bonuses along the way.

Potentially Yates could win (or lose) this Giro by 20 seconds.

That's the issue. You have to bust an absolute gut over 6 days in the hardest discipline (mountains) to try and put time into certain riders just to counter 1 days worth of TT times.

That's a ridiculous system.

 

[Stat Brother]

That's the issue. You have to bust an absolute gut over 6 days in the hardest discipline (mountains) to try and put time into certain riders just to counter 1 days worth of TT times.

That's a ridiculous system.

But for the TT rider to be competitive in his discipline he has to bust even more of a gut over 6 days.

 

[pb21]

Yates was attacking, Doumalin was simply hanging on. Like he always does. That's boring.

All they were talking about was the time the most attacking and positive rider needs to hold out one of the dullest on the TT day.

Rather than saying Doumalin will need to attack in the mountains etc it's all about the TT. All about hanging on rather than attacking.

To me seeing Dumoulin hanging on and thereby at his limit, trying to minimise time given away to Yates (as well as work with the group he was in), was fascinating and far from boring, and if he does win overall, would be a worthy winner, as would be Yates.

Also don't forget Yates MAY have a day where he pays for his efforts yet...