[Misc] Covid jabs and prioritising

[studio150]

I've been having an interesting ongoing discussion with my wife about how prioritising Covid jabs has just been "accepted" by the population at large. My Dad had his first jab today and so it's prompted me to get a wider view, especially when I found out recently that Indonesia has started to vaccinate the economically active first.

There seems to be this acceptance that old people simply must be immunised first because they're most at risk in terms of mortality rates. But surely it's not as simple as that is it?

I'm looking at my two student age kids and my parents. My boomer parents have seen the world, made their money, had a life where university education was completely free, pensions were bulletproof, and mortgages easy to obtain. Now they're first in line for jabs. Meanwhile my student age kids have had none of that and are clearly exposed to potential mental health problems. Two years of A levels, along with college and student life completely written off will do that, and they're not being considered at all.

I look at my parents and wonder whether - having had full and fortunate lives - they should have been the ones staying inside, cared for by my generation (in terms of provisions) and other vulnerable sectors of society been at the front of the queue.

Just putting it out there - I find it very strange that whilst some things are vehemently debated, there is a widespread acceptance that the elderly should go first.

So in effect, put the old folks and those with the underlying illness at the back of the queue so that they die before it's their turn. Well it's a view on how to roll out the vaccine.

 

[Simster]

What is owed is a bit irrelevant....affordability is a much bigger issue. The vast majority of the biggest mortgages will be held by city workers and the like on big (and secure) salaries, on properties with large equity. Also, administering as you suggest would be an absolute nightmare - DOB is by far the simplest as virtually everyone's is recorded somewhere. I'd agree re keyworkers and teachers being near the very top.

I did wonder if someone would pull me up for that, and I accept we're dealing in very broad brush strokes by measuring with mortgage size. However, as I've pointed out, that doesn't appear to be a problem for your way of thinking when dealing with age. I don't accept that mortgage size is difficult to administer. You just walk into the doctors with a mortgage statement from the past 6 months. Simple.

 

[Weststander]

Listening to radio 2 the other day when they were discussing this subject.

Chap came on and made the similarity to the aircraft safety demonstration which clearly says [in the event of cabin pressure loss] "put your own oxygen mask on first so that you are then able to help others".
If this were adopted, we'd have our NHS workforce protected with numbers back to work ASAP, including, perhaps, enough staff to take in patients at the Nightingale hospitals too.

Education is a concern too mind, I reckon most kids are all 6+ months behind the curriculum across all ages now. Can see anyway of catching this up either unless they do "overtime" and/or cancel the Summer holiday.

NHS staff have been made a priority with the elderly. In the example I know of, the Western Sussex Hospitals Trust of Chi/Worthing/Southlands, as of Tuesday 70% of all staff had been vaccinated, on course for 100% very soon.

 

[Simster]

So in effect, put the old folks and those with the underlying illness at the back of the queue so that they die before it's their turn. Well it's a view on how to roll out the vaccine.

No, I've moderated my position a bit: put the old folks with financial security and a support network at the back of the queue.

 

[Weststander]

So in effect, put the old folks and those with the underlying illness at the back of the queue so that they die before it's their turn. Well it's a view on how to roll out the vaccine.

Or completely isolate them all from under 65’s, which is impossible.

 

[Simster]

Or completely isolate them all from under 65’s, which is impossible.

So perhaps some elderly are more of an urgent case than others. Who knew?

 

[Stumpy Tim]

I see a lot of people keen to get teachers a vaccine so the kids can get back to school, which to me ignores the fact that the kids will go back home and give Covid to all the parents out there. One teacher per 30 kids versus 2 parents per each child. I'm not saying teachers shouldn't get the jab, but I don't see how this stops the spread of the virus

 

[Notters]

theres been a lot of assumptions on priorities. the fact that elderly have disproportionate impact has made some of those easier to accept and vaccines is certainly there.

if you vaccinated other groups you'd probably prolong restrictions until the at risk groups were immunised anyway. so this is faster way to lower restrictions.

Maybe, but immunising people who mix with more people would reduce the r-rate much quicker surely?

 

[British Bulldog]

You've put me on the spot, but I'll have a go:

NHS workers & teachers
Other key workers - need to think about who and how to prioritise this.
Then those people privately renting. They need an income or we are going to have an even bigger homelessness problem.
Then those with mortgages, tiered by what is owed. Below rentals in priority because banks can and should be able to offer payment holidays.

I'd start at the top myself, the emergency services. most of us can live without physical contact and adjust what we do around washing hands, gelling, social distancing etc. they can't.

 

[Simster]

I see a lot of people keen to get teachers a vaccine so the kids can get back to school, which to me ignores the fact that the kids will go back home and give Covid to all the parents out there. One teacher per 30 kids versus 2 parents per each child. I'm not saying teachers shouldn't get the jab, but I don't see how this stops the spread of the virus

I wouldn't vaccinate teachers so that kids can go back to school. I'd vaccinate teachers because they are currently exposed to the kids of NHS workers, so are at high risk themselves.

 

[Shirty]

I've been having an interesting ongoing discussion with my wife about how prioritising Covid jabs has just been "accepted" by the population at large. My Dad had his first jab today and so it's prompted me to get a wider view, especially when I found out recently that Indonesia has started to vaccinate the economically active first.

There seems to be this acceptance that old people simply must be immunised first because they're most at risk in terms of mortality rates. But surely it's not as simple as that is it?

I'm looking at my two student age kids and my parents. My boomer parents have seen the world, made their money, had a life where university education was completely free, pensions were bulletproof, and mortgages easy to obtain. Now they're first in line for jabs. Meanwhile my student age kids have had none of that and are clearly exposed to potential mental health problems. Two years of A levels, along with college and student life completely written off will do that, and they're not being considered at all.

I look at my parents and wonder whether - having had full and fortunate lives - they should have been the ones staying inside, cared for by my generation (in terms of provisions) and other vulnerable sectors of society been at the front of the queue.

Just putting it out there - I find it very strange that whilst some things are vehemently debated, there is a widespread acceptance that the elderly should go first.

My wife suggested exactly this the other day. I was a little taken aback initially, but after more thought can see the benefits.

It really is the overriding issue with the Covid response - its a constant balancing act between economic welfare (of individuals as much as the country as a whole) versus preservation of life and protection of the NHS. I'm glad I dont have to make these decisions. I think i would prioritize healthcare workers and key workers and after that I would probably go with the age-related grouping as we have now.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

The cynic in me thinks this has a political edge. Feign commitment to the NHS and keep Conservative voters alive.





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[Chicken Run]

There you go. As far as I'm concerned, maybe you should be considered a priority over someone who has lived their life and has absolutely no financial worries. That extra six months to a year could mean everything to someone like you.

Meanwhile, we are all worried about the NHS yet despite the worst rates since the pandemic, we still have these Nightingale hospitals sitting there idle.

This is a good discussion though and one I have just taken to the evening meal round the table with wife and 17 yo daughter, both of them in complete agreement with you.


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[Thunder Bolt]

This is clearly the prevailing view, sheebo.

But as I say: so many of the elderly are financially secure and have a loving family for support. They absolutely don't need to be at the front of the queue, surely?

In ten years time, when we possibly have suicides thanks to an ailing economy with massive unemployment and record homeless levels owing to people not able to pay their rents, I wonder whether the wisdom of blanketly vaccinating everyone on the basis of old age will be questioned.

Of course I'm painting a very gloomy outlook there, and it might not happen. I just think that getting everyday folk with financial burdens back into work is the best way of preventing that.

I will dispute that many of the elderly are financially secure or have a family for support. Women of my age group and older stayed at home to look after children when the were born.
It was only in the mid 70s that women started working full time again after children, instead of part time jobs, so many of them don’t have full pensions in their own right. Two of my peers have lost their husbands in the last twelve months due to cancer and heart attack, so are living on their own. Women generally live longer so are more likely to be widowed. This doesn’t apply to me, but I’ve seen many women of my age (over 70) it does apply to.
Many older people I know haven’t seen grandchildren for a long time, including babies born since last March.

I think front line staff such as medical, ambulance, police, firefighters should all be vaccinated first, then old people as they are taking up the majority of hospital beds.

Younger people are slightly ill, or no showing any symptoms at all so should be further down the list.

School work can be made up. Throughout the war, schools were only open for half a day in many cases. Schools now have the internet, and there programmes being broadcast on tv.

No one system is perfect.

 

[Sheebo]

This is clearly the prevailing view, sheebo.

But as I say: so many of the elderly are financially secure and have a loving family for support. They absolutely don't need to be at the front of the queue, surely?

In ten years time, when we possibly have suicides thanks to an ailing economy with massive unemployment and record homeless levels owing to people not able to pay their rents, I wonder whether the wisdom of blanketly vaccinating everyone on the basis of old age will be questioned.

Of course I'm painting a very gloomy outlook there, and it might not happen. I just think that getting everyday folk with financial burdens back into work is the best way of preventing that.

If we had a magic ball that said x y and z are gonna die within a year we’d probably leave them be and give the vaccine to someone else have to laugh or else we’d cry...

I think you raise a good point but not all the economy is struggling - construction, for example, is booming. We just have to hope this last year doesn’t have a great impact on young people in the long run of it. There's been a few months break in the middle sort of which will help. No doubt it’s been tough mentally for everyone, but hopefully the young will have good support networks around them and go back to normality as soon as possible...

The furlough scheme has helped many and is a cracking deal for most. Unfortunately many have also abused the **** out of it. Just hope the debt can be paid back without the everyday working person having to suffer.

 

[Beach Hut]

I just love the way older people and baby boomers are so resented and at times tainted as the evil people of this country.

The situation they grew up in was not one created specifically by themselves and contrary to some beliefs they did not commit a crime just because mortgages were readily available and property was more affordable.

 

[maffew]

Its an interesting discussion. And surely if its the "at risk" categories prioritised first, ie those who may become seriousy ill/occupy hospital beds, then people from black, asian/minority backgrounds should be further ahead in the queue?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It's about numbers of deaths I guess, which makes sense. Although, these elderly are generally isolating and shielding anyway, if they vaccinated the active people they would slow spread and achieve same result in all likelihood.

If vaccine availability wasn't limited I'd set up vaccination points in town centres, first come first serve, jab jab jab jab jab, could get through millions really quickly. But as the number of vaccines are limited, priortising makes sense I suppose.

 

[Chicken Run]

I just love the way older people and baby boomers are so resented and at times tainted as the evil people of this country.

The situation they grew up in was not one created specifically by themselves and contrary to some beliefs they did not commit a crime just because mortgages were readily available and property was more affordable.

Hi Boomer [emoji23]


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[dazzer6666]

No, I've moderated my position a bit: put the old folks with financial security and a support network at the back of the queue.

Means-tested life-saving vaccinations - that'll go down well with the lefties