Could UKIP win the General Election ?

[daveinprague]

Yes, I agree. It was very important to discuss the expulsion of people from Indonesia whilst reporting the results of a Swiss referendum, that the people didnt want, and totally rejected. Shame on the BBC.

 

[pastafarian]

Thanks for this - this would back up BF's point to an extent, as it wasn't a vote for open borders or general immigration at all, as I suspected. The interviewer did only speak to two people who were in favour and the loser really only got the chance to say how he disappointed he was, so that might seem a bit biased, I suppose. But then the "increase the quota" vote won easily and so it is perhaps only right that they get the lion's share of the publicity.

I might be nitpicking here but there was no "increase the quota" vote.
It was a vote asking to lower the amount of people allowed to enter above and way beyond what had already been voted on.Currently 80,000 and proposing 16000 i believe.

No quotas have been increased because of this last vote.Ill put you down to bad wording as opposed to not knowing as you come across as genuine and far too polite for your own good.

An interesting side debate is the Swiss have not yet implemented the will of their people/voters from the vote earlier this year because they dont know how to do it,they are also legally bound by bilateral treaties with Brussels on free movement of peoples.

The Swiss Government are duty bound to introduce these measures within 3 years,if they cant do it it makes a mockery of their direct government system.The Swiss love this system and they will be throwing fondue all over the shop when they find out their parliament is now ruled by Brussels.

My brother has lived there for 15 years and reliably informs me there is growing anger,not really about immigration per say,(they have 250,000 people commute into the country every day) but against the EU in general which is seen at eating away at their own democracy.One thing is for certain they will never vote to join with full membership

The same problem arises with Cameron,he can talk the talk and say all these things that he wants for Britain back from the EU but the plain fact is they will not allow it.....his renegotiation plan i believe is just a red herring. My vote is drifting to UKIP,an in out vote,pref out.....we can then start again trading with who we want under terms agreed with individual countries.Europe and Worldwide,and have the country run by Westminster to boot.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I might be nitpicking here but there was no "increase the quota" vote.
It was a vote asking to lower the amount of people allowed to enter above and way beyond what had already been voted on.Currently 80,000 and proposing 16000 i believe.

No quotas have been increased because of this last vote.Ill put you down to bad wording as opposed to not knowing as you come across as genuine and far too polite for your own good.

An interesting side debate is the Swiss have not yet implemented the will of their people/voters from the vote earlier this year because they dont know how to do it,they are also legally bound by bilateral treaties with Brussels on free movement of peoples.

The Swiss Government are duty bound to introduce these measures within 3 years,if they cant do it it makes a mockery of their direct government system.The Swiss love this system and they will be throwing fondue all over the shop when they find out their parliament is now ruled by Brussels.

My brother has lived there for 15 years and reliably informs me there is growing anger,not really about immigration per say,(they have 250,000 people commute into the country every day) but against the EU in general which is seen at eating away at their own democracy.One thing is for certain they will never vote to join with full membership

The same problem arises with Cameron,he can talk the talk and say all these things that he wants for Britain back from the EU but the plain fact is they will not allow it.....his renegotiation plan i believe is just a red herring. My vote is drifting to UKIP,an in out vote,pref out.....we can then start again trading with who we want under terms agreed with individual countries.Europe and Worldwide,and have the country run by Westminster to boot.

Funny that, we only get one side of the story in the UK, that being we are the only ones who have a problem with how the EU is being run. Just ask my relatives in Southern Italy who say the situation is terrible. Unemployment is rife on top of all the illegal immigration they now have.

All these countries are being run by a bunch of overpaid yes yes Euro men who stiffle EU debate, which is why in many other European countries alternative parties can now be seen on the rise. If people are not being allowed their say this is eventually what is going to happen. The EU needs to wake up, it needs a complete overhaul, because what goes on in the EU eventually effects us all.

I notice the ones who seem to be doing the best are the Eastern European countries. Pay and general living standards where probably so poor to begin with, the EU is basically transforming these countries, what with the money the EU gives them and the money that is sent back to these countries, these are the tiny success stories. You can understand why they are so apposed to any EU change.

 

[Hastings gull]

I might be nitpicking here but there was no "increase the quota" vote.
It was a vote asking to lower the amount of people allowed to enter above and way beyond what had already been voted on.Currently 80,000 and proposing 16000 i believe.

No quotas have been increased because of this last vote.Ill put you down to bad wording as opposed to not knowing as you come across as genuine and far too polite for your own good.

An interesting side debate is the Swiss have not yet implemented the will of their people/voters from the vote earlier this year because they dont know how to do it,they are also legally bound by bilateral treaties with Brussels on free movement of peoples.

The Swiss Government are duty bound to introduce these measures within 3 years,if they cant do it it makes a mockery of their direct government system.The Swiss love this system and they will be throwing fondue all over the shop when they find out their parliament is now ruled by Brussels.

My brother has lived there for 15 years and reliably informs me there is growing anger,not really about immigration per say,(they have 250,000 people commute into the country every day) but against the EU in general which is seen at eating away at their own democracy.One thing is for certain they will never vote to join with full membership

The same problem arises with Cameron,he can talk the talk and say all these things that he wants for Britain back from the EU but the plain fact is they will not allow it.....his renegotiation plan i believe is just a red herring. My vote is drifting to UKIP,an in out vote,pref out.....we can then start again trading with who we want under terms agreed with individual countries.Europe and Worldwide,and have the country run by Westminster to boot.

Thank you and yes, you are right -it was loose wording on my part. Thank you also for your comment about me!! I do find that many good folk here, myself included, start with statements that are rather generalised and/or sweeping and then in the light of others' comments, realise that one's views need modifying that shade, and this is always best done in an atmosphere that is calm and whereby debate is reasoned. I would not expect anyone necessarily to radically change their view -we are all products of our differing surroundings and upbringing - but at least to consider that others may have a point, and it was something that we just had not thought of.
I lived in Germany for 24 years and travelled extensively around Europe, and so what you say about CH is not a surprise at all. I didn't think, when I read the report, that they were just voting for "open doors and let 'em all in", and knew that so many people travelled there to work. This is equally true with the Dutch/ French/ Belgians working in Germany and vice versa. On reflection, you are right, in that there was some spin to the report, where you had the impression that "let 'em in" was what the voters wanted, though I don't think it was naked propaganda. I am always dubious when the media go on the street and interview people - to be fair, say the topic is EU, in or out, they would usually broadcast bystanders' comments that reflect yes and no, but of course we do not know the proportion of people asked to acieve that balance.

In Germany, I would not say that there is anger with the EU, as such, but you do hear many comments that they are being taken for a ride and paying more than their fair share. Even now, the spectre of WW2 is still there, albeit in diminished form, and the Germans are sensitive to the idea that they must be friends to everyone in Europe. Criticism of the EU is of course more strident elsewhere, as was evident in those election results last year, as voters see the huge, unelected and allegedly corrupt bureaucracy it has become -allegedly! Whatever one thinks of the EU, this is sad, as the initial intent was to bring people together through ease of trade and travel. I am not sure what Cameron is doing - you are quite right in that he has no wriggle room, as we are bound by treaties, but I think he might just be going over the heads of the eurocrats and politicians who stand to gain from the EU, and appealing to the population directly, where as you see from CH, and I witness in D, attitudes are rather less forgiving, given what we are witnessing.

 

[Hastings gull]

Funny that, we only get one side of the story in the UK, that being we are the only ones who have a problem with how the EU is being run. Just ask my relatives in Southern Italy who say the situation is terrible. Unemployment is rife on top of all the illegal immigration they now have.

All these countries are being run by a bunch of overpaid yes yes Euro men who stiffle EU debate, which is why in many other European countries alternative parties can now be seen on the rise. If people are not being allowed their say this is eventually what is going to happen. The EU needs to wake up, it needs a complete overhaul, because what goes on in the EU eventually effects us all.

I notice the ones who seem to be doing the best are the Eastern European countries. Pay and general living standards where probably so poor to begin with, the EU is basically transforming these countries, what with the money the EU gives them and the money that is sent back to these countries, these are the tiny success stories. You can understand why they are so apposed to any EU change.

Yes, fully agree. I think this is why it is often so difficult to get agreement as inevitably member states push for number 1. To an extent, this is understandable, as come election time, each politician wants to be seen as "getting a good deal for . .." -how often do we hear that after EU negotiations. Eastern Europe has undoubtedly done well, and I am sure this is why Ukraine wants to join, and others. I don't think anyone seriously thinks that they will be contributing much financially compared to established members. Unless the economic situation improves drastically, I can see the whole thing imploding at some stage in the future, but hopefully peacefully! Will we be better off without the EU? Who could say for sure? I recall asking a friend, who is very anti -and he said "the Germans will always want to sell us BMWs and something will be worked out." Seems fair comment.

 

[Soulman]

Funny that, we only get one side of the story in the UK, that being we are the only ones who have a problem with how the EU is being run. Just ask my relatives in Southern Italy who say the situation is terrible. Unemployment is rife on top of all the illegal immigration they now have.

All these countries are being run by a bunch of overpaid yes yes Euro men who stiffle EU debate, which is why in many other European countries alternative parties can now be seen on the rise. If people are not being allowed their say this is eventually what is going to happen. The EU needs to wake up, it needs a complete overhaul, because what goes on in the EU eventually effects us all.

I notice the ones who seem to be doing the best are the Eastern European countries. Pay and general living standards where probably so poor to begin with, the EU is basically transforming these countries, what with the money the EU gives them and the money that is sent back to these countries, these are the tiny success stories. You can understand why they are so apposed to any EU change.

Good post

 

[Soulman]

Thank you and yes, you are right -it was loose wording on my part. Thank you also for your comment about me!! I do find that many good folk here, myself included, start with statements that are rather generalised and/or sweeping and then in the light of others' comments, realise that one's views need modifying that shade, and this is always best done in an atmosphere that is calm and whereby debate is reasoned. I would not expect anyone necessarily to radically change their view -we are all products of our differing surroundings and upbringing - but at least to consider that others may have a point, and it was something that we just had not thought of.
I lived in Germany for 24 years and travelled extensively around Europe, and so what you say about CH is not a surprise at all. I didn't think, when I read the report, that they were just voting for "open doors and let 'em all in", and knew that so many people travelled there to work. This is equally true with the Dutch/ French/ Belgians working in Germany and vice versa. On reflection, you are right, in that there was some spin to the report, where you had the impression that "let 'em in" was what the voters wanted, though I don't think it was naked propaganda. I am always dubious when the media go on the street and interview people - to be fair, say the topic is EU, in or out, they would usually broadcast bystanders' comments that reflect yes and no, but of course we do not know the proportion of people asked to acieve that balance.

In Germany, I would not say that there is anger with the EU, as such, but you do hear many comments that they are being taken for a ride and paying more than their fair share. Even now, the spectre of WW2 is still there, albeit in diminished form, and the Germans are sensitive to the idea that they must be friends to everyone in Europe. Criticism of the EU is of course more strident elsewhere, as was evident in those election results last year, as voters see the huge, unelected and allegedly corrupt bureaucracy it has become -allegedly! Whatever one thinks of the EU, this is sad, as the initial intent was to bring people together through ease of trade and travel. I am not sure what Cameron is doing - you are quite right in that he has no wriggle room, as we are bound by treaties, but I think he might just be going over the heads of the eurocrats and politicians who stand to gain from the EU, and appealing to the population directly, where as you see from CH, and I witness in D, attitudes are rather less forgiving, given what we are witnessing.

Another good post

 

[Soulman]

Yes, fully agree. I think this is why it is often so difficult to get agreement as inevitably member states push for number 1. To an extent, this is understandable, as come election time, each politician wants to be seen as "getting a good deal for . .." -how often do we hear that after EU negotiations. Eastern Europe has undoubtedly done well, and I am sure this is why Ukraine wants to join, and others. I don't think anyone seriously thinks that they will be contributing much financially compared to established members. Unless the economic situation improves drastically, I can see the whole thing imploding at some stage in the future, but hopefully peacefully! Will we be better off without the EU? Who could say for sure? I recall asking a friend, who is very anti -and he said "the Germans will always want to sell us BMWs and something will be worked out." Seems fair comment.

And this makes the hatrick of good posts.

 

[daveinprague]

Is that the Italy that has been a total success story in the past, lacking mafia government involvement, or massive political curruption, and only 32 governments since 1970?

 

[Nibble]

It's truly depressing the amount of threads that have been hijacked by ill informed right wingers. Some of their points I agree with, controlled immigration, more negotiation room with eu laws etc but there seems to be a hardcore of about 4 or 5 of you lot who smother threads with ignorance, Daily Mail rhetoric and most annoying of all, irrelevant personal nonsense.

I don't know if you are all as boring in real life but on here, especially over the last few months you have made yourselves look like a right bunch of dull, repetative, punchy, meatheads.

 

[Withdean11]

It's truly depressing the amount of threads that have been hijacked by ill informed right wingers. Some of their points I agree with, controlled immigration, more negotiation room with eu laws etc but there seems to be a hardcore of about 4 or 5 of you lot who smother threads with ignorance, Daily Mail rhetoric and most annoying of all, irrelevant personal nonsense.

I don't know if you are all as boring in real life but on here, especially over the last few months you have made yourselves look like a right bunch of dull, repetative, punchy, meatheads.

Oh the irony..

 

[Nibble]

Oh the irony..

Oh, the predictability....

 

[Hastings gull]

It's truly depressing the amount of threads that have been hijacked by ill informed right wingers. Some of their points I agree with, controlled immigration, more negotiation room with eu laws etc but there seems to be a hardcore of about 4 or 5 of you lot who smother threads with ignorance, Daily Mail rhetoric and most annoying of all, irrelevant personal nonsense.

I don't know if you are all as boring in real life but on here, especially over the last few months you have made yourselves look like a right bunch of dull, repetative, punchy, meatheads.[/QUOTE]

I would certainly agree with you that the insults are hardly necessary and do nothing for the debate, and of course you do record some measure of agreement with the points raised. I presume, that you do not see the irony of what you have written? The right - wingers, as you describe them, need two to tango, so what do you suppose the politics are of the other party? They were not writing to themselves! You describe rhetoric and personal nonsense, not without reason and then end your contribution as you do. As stated, a couple of pages were devoted to insults and probably the male ego wanting to have the last word, but then you come up with the usual generalisations (right-wingers who are ill-informed - of, course, you are not, are you?) that you take others to task for.
That said, I would certainly agree with the post, and it would be really helpful if we could ALL stick to reasoned debate.

 

[Nibble]

I stick by ALL aspects of my post. Please regard it as commentary rather than anything meant to forward this apocalyptic gump fest. G'bye y'alls.

 

[Hastings gull]

I stick by ALL aspects of my post. Please regard it as commentary rather than anything meant to forward this apocalyptic gump fest. G'bye y'alls.

As you are quite entitled so to do, my friend. You have of course contributed to it handsomely!

 

[brighton fella]

It's truly depressing the amount of threads that have been hijacked by ill informed right wingers. Some of their points I agree with, controlled immigration, more negotiation room with eu laws etc but there seems to be a hardcore of about 4 or 5 of you lot who smother threads with ignorance, Daily Mail rhetoric and most annoying of all, irrelevant personal nonsense.

I don't know if you are all as boring in real life but on here, especially over the last few months you have made yourselves look like a right bunch of dull, repetative, punchy, meatheads.

hijacked are you for real ?
why don't you wind your fat neck in you useless lump of lard and crawl back to wherever you came from.

 

[daveinprague]

...and BF comes along, and proves the point haha...

 

[Deleted member 22389]

It's truly depressing the amount of threads that have been hijacked by ill informed right wingers. Some of their points I agree with, controlled immigration, more negotiation room with eu laws etc but there seems to be a hardcore of about 4 or 5 of you lot who smother threads with ignorance, Daily Mail rhetoric and most annoying of all, irrelevant personal nonsense.

I don't know if you are all as boring in real life but on here, especially over the last few months you have made yourselves look like a right bunch of dull, repetative, punchy, meatheads.

How is this nonsense. I can see with my own eyes how busy it is getting down here. Might not all be immigrants, but it's certainly a product of immigration one way or another which the governments have refused to sort out. The pressures from London and the outskirts are slowly being pushed outwards now unless you didn't notice, which is why house prices have sky rocketed down here. It's why my own relatives of 18 and 20 years will never get on this housing ladder.

Reasons:
a) Not enough affordable property in London, properties grabbed and prices pushed up by rich foreign investors and developers so people looking elsewhere

b) Government cut backs on things like benefits, lack of rental properties so people pushed down this way because of the cheaper rents

c) Existing owners getting out while the prices are high, moving down this way for a better quality of life because they can no longer stand where they used to live, too busy becuase of an increase in population due to things immigration in the first place

And It's why somebody from the council knocked on my door last week doing a survey, so they can plan for extra capacity in our schools, doctors and other services, or am I completely and utterly wrong.

 

[brighton fella]

Yes, fully agree. I think this is why it is often so difficult to get agreement as inevitably member states push for number 1. To an extent, this is understandable, as come election time, each politician wants to be seen as "getting a good deal for . .." -how often do we hear that after EU negotiations. Eastern Europe has undoubtedly done well, and I am sure this is why Ukraine wants to join, and others. I don't think anyone seriously thinks that they will be contributing much financially compared to established members. Unless the economic situation improves drastically, I can see the whole thing imploding at some stage in the future, but hopefully peacefully! Will we be better off without the EU? Who could say for sure? I recall asking a friend, who is very anti -and he said "the Germans will always want to sell us BMWs and something will be worked out." Seems fair comment.

referring to your BMW comment your mate was absolutely right as I to feel BMW along with the german economy would have way to much to loose financially if the EU were to ever get sloppy over our departure. if we were to leave you could never rule out pathetic childish behaviour and tbh I'd expect no different coming from them yet at the same time I feel it would do us some good by giving us that extra kick up the backside we need.
going back to your previous post when you happened to mention that you thought the EU was set up with good intensions as to stop any conflict from ever breaking out in europe again I don't agree... you have to bear in mind this whole set up was designed by some very clever people who'd obviously done their homework along with added help of the mighty USA. I believe if you had done the amount of homework that they had done and your motives were genuine you definitely wouldn't have come up with what was put in place. to find the answer.. have you ever heard the phrase new world order been used ?? I shall not go in to details but there my friend is your answer.

 

[Nibble]

hijacked are you for real ?
why don't you wind your fat neck in you useless lump of lard and crawl back to wherever you came from.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that is a wind up post.